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Back To The Future
Topic Started: Friday, 27. August 2010, 17:12 (919 Views)
Mairtin
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OsullivanB
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 16:30
1. Conciliar jurisdiction modelled onthe Council of Jerusalem.
Could you expand that a little bit, OsB rather than us all having to Google about the Council?
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OsullivanB

Mairtin
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 17:04
OsullivanB
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 16:30
1. Conciliar jurisdiction modelled onthe Council of Jerusalem.
Could you expand that a little bit, OsB rather than us all having to Google about the Council?
Acts 15
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Derekap
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There are plenty of sinful events in the Old Testament - so don't blame the soaps!

Sorry I I'm mistaken, but there are suggestions of more autonomy at parish level. Yet in other topics there is criticism of parishes breaking Canon and Liturgical Laws.

Derekap
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OsullivanB

Derekap
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 17:49
There are plenty of sinful events in the Old Testament - so don't blame the soaps!

Sorry I I'm mistaken, but there are suggestions of more autonomy at parish level. Yet in other topics there is criticism of parishes breaking Canon and Liturgical Laws.

Please note the word "possible" in my proposal for greater devolution of decision-making.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 16:59
Clare
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 12:35
Ok, so we legalise murder and theft etc, so that people can refrain from doing them because they are wrong, rather than because they are illegal and they might go to prison. I'm sure the victims won't mind.
The key difference is that the population at large generally recognise murder and theft as being wrong. We have failed miserably to convince them of our belief that abortion and various other things are also wrong.
Did the majority of people believe that abortion was acceptable before it was legalised?

Maybe if murder and theft were legalised, people would come to accept them too. Oh, except that the victims of theft and murder are rather bigger and more obvious than a foetus, I guess.
S.A.G.

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Anne-Marie

Mairtin
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 17:04
OsullivanB
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 16:30
1. Conciliar jurisdiction modelled onthe Council of Jerusalem.
Could you expand that a little bit, OsB rather than us all having to Google about the Council?
The Council of Jerusalem overruled the pope - Peter!
Supposedly, this pope (Benedict) undertook to make the Church more conciliar prior to his election, rather than him just sitting in the Vatican issuing edicts.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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OsullivanB

It shows that Peter was a leader but not a ruler.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Mairtin
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Clare, I have no wish to see this thread dominated by a rehash of a discussion we had on abortion just a couple of months ago. I'll simply let it rest with a repeat of my observation at that time that in over 30 years of legalised abortion, our Church and the various pro-life organisations have not suceeded even once anywhere in the world in stopping the increased liberalisation of abortion, let alone rolling back any legislation; in my opinion, that seems to be to be an overwhelming argument for adopting a different approach.

If you do want to argue that point then feel free to take it to another thread or resurrect the previous one.
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Rose of York
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To follow up Mairtin's latest posting, legislation is often incompatible with Christian values. If we can get the Church back to some semblance of what it was in its early days, we as individuals, and members of small groups need to be seen to be living as Christians, not solely as members of some huge multi national organisation.

We are the people of God is a well known slogan. People are individuals. I am asked why "The Catholic Church" does this that and the other. Why does the Catholic Church have all those buildings all those art works, all those valuables, why is it (yes, it, not we) against (for example) remarriage after divorce? Are we seen to be individuals who believe in the permanence of marriage? Do many people know that we pray when we are not inside the churches, at organised worship? One of my neighbours was surprised to hear that I pray. "Oh I thought you Catholics went to church every Sunday because you have to, it's Christians who pray." Yes that really was said, to me.
Keep the Faith!

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Mairtin
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I've been holding back on my own opinions to hear what other people have to say but there are two particular areas where I think a return back to earlier times would be beneficial.
  1. A return to the Pope being a spiritual leader rather than a temporal ruler with the elimination of the massive bureaucracy that comes from a small cadre of old men closeted in the Vatican trying to rule the minutiae of our daily lives.

  2. The elimination of the morass of complex theology that has been accumulated over the last 2000 years and a return to a much simpler focus on the essentials of our Faith.

I suspect that the decline in vocations is going to see movement in both those regards.
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Mairtin
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Rose of York
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 21:11
We are the people of God is a well known slogan. People are individuals. I am asked why "The Catholic Church" does this that and the other. Why does the Catholic Church have all those buildings all those art works, all those valuables, why is it (yes, it, not we) against (for example) remarriage after divorce? Are we seen to be individuals who believe in the permanence of marriage? Do many people know that we pray when we are not inside the churches, at organised worship?
I'd certainly love to see us regaining what an unknown Christian wrote in the Epistle to Diognetus which explores what is different about Christians:

Quote:
 
For the Christians are distinguished from other people neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive people; nor do they, like some proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines.

But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking way of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners, As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners.
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Rose of York
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Am I a rebel, for suggesting there is no need for Cardinals to dress as Cardinals day in day out. The scarlet sash and red trimmed cassock do make a man look important! Kings are content to wear suits for most occasions.

Has anybody seen a photograph of the Pope wearing a suit, since his election to the position of Bishop of Rome?
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Rose of York
Saturday, 28. August 2010, 21:11
To follow up Mairtin's latest posting, legislation is often incompatible with Christian values. If we can get the Church back to some semblance of what it was in its early days, we as individuals, and members of small groups need to be seen to be living as Christians, not solely as members of some huge multi national organisation.

We are the people of God is a well known slogan. People are individuals. I am asked why "The Catholic Church" does this that and the other. Why does the Catholic Church have all those buildings all those art works, all those valuables, why is it (yes, it, not we) against (for example) remarriage after divorce? Are we seen to be individuals who believe in the permanence of marriage? Do many people know that we pray when we are not inside the churches, at organised worship? One of my neighbours was surprised to hear that I pray. "Oh I thought you Catholics went to church every Sunday because you have to, it's Christians who pray." Yes that really was said, to me.
I believe it - easy.

Our Church has become more Catholic than Christian.

More a recognised culture than a recognised spirituality. And when spirituality is recognised it is Marian rather than Christian.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Sunday, 29. August 2010, 08:37
And when spirituality is recognised it is Marian rather than Christian.
Marian is Christian, and Christian is Marian.
S.A.G.

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Anne-Marie

Clare
Sunday, 29. August 2010, 09:56
Gerard
Sunday, 29. August 2010, 08:37
And when spirituality is recognised it is Marian rather than Christian.
Marian is Christian, and Christian is Marian.
Specifically Catholic, rather than Christian, Clare.
After Pentecost, Our Lady went off to Ephesus, near Izmir in Turkey, and played no more role in the development of Christianity, according to the Letters included in our Bible.
She was respected (and still is, the Mayor at Ephesus having given me a pendant of 'Mother Mary')... but was not a leader or reference-point for Christians.

The focal point for Christians was always Jesus/God, not Our Lady... until long after, someone elevated Our Lady, rightly or wrongly.
Yes, I can talk to her - as I can any saint - but she still isn't God, or His equal: Special, yes, but not equal.

I would love our Church to get back to basics, even if that meant house Masses and no churches (much as I may love some of them)!
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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