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Turning the other cheek; is it obligatory, no ifs, no buts?
Topic Started: Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 18:14 (1,428 Views)
Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 20:06
Clare
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 19:57
Sola Scriptura again..
For some reason I had gained the impression that you shared my belief that we shouldn't expand beyond what scripture says unless there is good reason to do so.
I believe what the Church has always taught, Mairtin.

If the Church expands beyond Scripture, as She does when She elaborates on what is forbidden by the fifth commandment and what is not forbidden, and when she says self-defence is allowed, I think that that is a good reason for expanding beyond Scripture.

Sola Scriptura is a Protestant error.

Mairtin
 
For something that isn't rocket science, it seems incredibly difficult to actually give a reasonable justification other than muttering about common sense and Church teaching.


Again, I think having recourse to Church teaching is a perfectly good justification.
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Mairtin
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Clare
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 20:12
Again, I think having recourse to Church teaching is a perfectly good justification.
My understanding was that something cannot qualify as Church teaching if it is different from what teh Church Fathers taught and did.

Funnily enough, I think it was you who taught me that.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 20:20
Clare
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 20:12
Again, I think having recourse to Church teaching is a perfectly good justification.
My understanding was that something cannot qualify as Church teaching if it is different from what teh Church Fathers taught and did.

Funnily enough, I think it was you who taught me that.
Tell me where the Fathers unanimously agree with you and that they taught that we must never defend anyone else, Mairtin.

I've done enough attempting to back up my assertions for the time being.
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Mairtin
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I think this Wimbledon style rallying has far outlived any usefulness it might ever have had.

I will just have to remain as bemused as ever as to how our Church can simply decide to dismiss the direct words of Christ.
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saundthorp

Quote:
 
Am I the only person who thinks, "Of course not!"??

Of course you are not Clare.

Am I right in thinking, Mairtin, from what you have said in these and other posts, you would not be prepared to take defensive action, under any circumstances and for whatever reason.
If that is the case I have something to say about pacifism.

I came across this analysis of pacifism. I have always had little time for pacifists. I feel they exist on the backs of men who are willing to die defending their freedom. The moral high ground they claim comes from standing on the backs of brave men.

“Europeans apparently have never read John Stuart Mill: "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war, is worse."
"A man who cares more about his personal safety than anything else is a miserable creature who has no chance at being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him."

One of the most inspiring statements I have ever heard was made by an unnamed Polish man during their time under communist domination.

“Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees”

"And I submit to you that if a man has not discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live."
(Martin Luther King)

Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it.
(Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 21:31
I think this Wimbledon style rallying has far outlived any usefulness it might ever have had.

I will just have to remain as bemused as ever as to how our Church can simply decide to dismiss the direct words of Christ.
Here are some more words spoken by Christ.

12* "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13* Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

saundthorp
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 21:34

One of the most inspiring statements I have ever heard was made by an unnamed Polish man during their time under communist domination.

“Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees”

"And I submit to you that if a man has not discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live."
(Martin Luther King)

I note that:

the Pole did not say "Better to kill on your feet"

and Dr King did not say "...if a man has not discovered something that he will kill for, he isn't fit to live"

What they did say seems irrelevant to this debate.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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OsullivanB

Rose of York
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 21:41
Mairtin
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 21:31
I think this Wimbledon style rallying has far outlived any usefulness it might ever have had.

I will just have to remain as bemused as ever as to how our Church can simply decide to dismiss the direct words of Christ.
Here are some more words spoken by Christ.

12* "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13* Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Christ didn't say anything about harming anyone else in the process.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Mairtin
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saundthorp
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 21:34
Am I right in thinking, Mairtin, from what you have said in these and other posts, you would not be prepared to take defensive action, under any circumstances and for whatever reason.
You mean like post #84 where I said ...

Mairtin
 
Derek, like you, I would defend my family to the death but it continues to bother me that I can't find that verse in the Bible that says "turn the other cheek ... except when a member of your family is attacked."

... ?

I have made the point several times in this thread that what I am trying to get to is what is our Christian duty not what any of us would do in a particular circumstance but I guess that is beyond your comprehension.

Quote:
 
"A man who cares more about his personal safety than anything else is a miserable creature who has no chance at being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than him."

Gratuitous insults do nothing for your argument, you know absolutely nothing of the motives that I or any any individual has in regard to pacifism. I guess that it is also beyond your comprehension that a stand for pacifism often requires a far higher level of bravery than simply running with the herd.
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saundthorp

Mairtin,

Quote:
 
Derek, like you, I would defend my family to the death but it continues to bother me that I can't find that verse in the Bible that says "turn the other cheek ... except when a member of your family is attacked."


But you qualify your assertion that you would die in defence of your family.

I'm not being gratuitously offensive, I am just exploring the implications of your stand, implications you find uncomfortable. That is your problem, not mine.

Quote:
 
I guess that it is also beyond your comprehension that a stand for pacifism often requires a far higher level of bravery than simply running with the herd.


"simply running with the herd" That says it all about the type of person you are, Mairtin.
Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it.
(Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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OsullivanB

I had never thought of John Stuart Mill as a Catholic theologian before.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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saundthorp

Quote:
 
What they did say seems irrelevant to this debate.


I think those quotes of mine are very relevant OsullivanB, because as I said to Mairtin, I am exploring the logical conclusions of Mairtin's stand.
Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it.
(Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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Mairtin
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saundthorp
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 22:14
I am just exploring the implications of your stand, implications you find uncomfortable.
Let me reassure you that the only implications I find uncomfortable in this matter are those that impinge upon my already frail efforts to follow the path laid out by Christ.
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saundthorp

OsullivanB
Thursday, 26. August 2010, 22:17
I had never thought of John Stuart Mill as a Catholic theologian before.
Oh, so we must only quote from Catholic theologians must we! :rofl:
Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it.
(Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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OsullivanB

saundthorp
 
I think those quotes of mine are very relevant OsullivanB
They relate to dying for a reason. The debate is about killing or inflicting harm for a reason. I fail to see that a point favouring the first can legitimately be prayed in aid of the second.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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