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| Turning the other cheek; is it obligatory, no ifs, no buts? | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 18:14 (1,433 Views) | |
| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 20:39 Post #16 |
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That seems to have been Peter's reasoning in the Garden, for which he was reproved. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Mairtin | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 20:46 Post #17 |
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Mairtin has never ever claimed to be a perfect Christian. |
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| Clare | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 20:47 Post #18 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Was St Peter a nation? If you are in charge of a country, and some other country decides to invade, do you tell your subjects to accept it; would you rally your subjects with the message: "Come on everyone, men, women, children, let's all turn the other cheek together!"? |
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| Mairtin | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 20:49 Post #19 |
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Why should the rules be different for a nation as opposed to the individuals who comprise that nation? On a wider note, why should a Christian concern him or her self about nationhood, what should it matter to a Christian whether they are living under an English queen, a French king or a German dictator? |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 20:49 Post #20 |
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I would probably do what I often do - sin. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Mairtin | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 20:53 Post #21 |
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Jesus was born, grew up and preached His "turn the other cheek" message in a country that had been invaded. When he talked about loving ones enemy, I'd imagine that their Roman oppressors were the first enemy to come into the minds of most Jews listening to Him. |
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| Clare | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 20:55 Post #22 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Because if one has responsibility for others, as is the case in leaders of nations, and fathers of families, one ought to be concerned for one's nation and family. Christians are not called to be indifferent to the safety of others, of their families, of society, are they? |
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| Mairtin | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 21:01 Post #23 |
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For some strange reason, I always thought that Christians are called to one thing only - to bring to Christ themselves, their families and everyone else they possibly can. Doing good for others flows from that. I struggle to see how ideas of nationhood and worrying about who rules a country contribute to it. |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 21:01 Post #24 |
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If the act is sinful, then the reason for it does not usually excuse, however humanly understandable it is. I thought that was the gist of what you expounded elsewhere as Catholic doctrine. Would a threat to the safety of one's loved ones be justification for public worship of an idol? I think not. So, if violence is inherently wrong, the occasion of it is indeed a matter of moral indifference. It is, of course, completely counter-intuitive. But then that's rather what makes Jesus and his message(s) special. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Clare | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 21:07 Post #25 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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I'm not especially interested in nationhood myself, Mairtin. But the ruler of a nation ought to be! And yes, who rules the country does matter. I'm rather speechless that you think it has no bearing on bringing Christ to people. A ruler, or government can either facilitate or hinder bringing Christ to people. How can that not so minor detail be irrelevant? |
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| Clare | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 21:12 Post #26 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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It is true that the end does not justify the means, as I often point out. However, the Church does teach that killing in self-defence is allowed. Not all killing is murder. Murder is never allowed. Killing sometimes is. And don't pick on me for pointing out that this is what the Church teaches! It is what the Church teaches. I do not make it up. I accept it. The Catechism of the Council of Trent list types of killing which are lawful. Violence therefore is a permissible means in some circumstances. |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 21:19 Post #27 |
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I expect you're right, as is the Council of Trent. Jesus made a hash of his communication on the point. Still, nobody's perfect, are they. Oh...but...hmmm |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| Clare | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 21:24 Post #28 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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OsB. The Church was established by Jesus among other things to interpret His message. Even without the Catechism of the Council of Trent, it would be patently obvious to me that one is not obliged to turn the other cheek in every situation. Indeed in some situations one may be obliged not to turn the other cheek. It's the spirit of the law. You (and others) are insisting on the letter of the law, even when adhering to it would violate the spirit. |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 21:36 Post #29 |
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Administrator
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Please may we have that list? One never knows when it may come in handy. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 24. August 2010, 21:43 Post #30 |
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You must be right, Clare. I can't think how I could have let the Gospels lead me into such egregious error. It's so wonderful to know that the Tridentine Fathers were there to save us from taking them at face value. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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7:54 PM Jul 11