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Left Wing, Right Wing, moderate, extreme
Topic Started: Tuesday, 1. June 2010, 12:27 (2,133 Views)
Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 10:38
Clare
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 09:52
OsullivanB
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 23:23
...
4. Provide good sex education from an early age.
....
Number 4 is totally unnecessary, and indeed forbidden.
Where is it forbidden?
In Church teaching. I'll find the relevant bits shortly...
S.A.G.

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Josephine
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If Marie Stopes Centres can advertise themselves on TV,

why can't/don't pro-life centres also advertise themselves on TV?
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OsullivanB

Clare, I did not sepcify what the education should consist of or who should give it. What I do know is that my father failed to give me any, and my mother's attempt to fill the gap was brave but useless.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
OsullivanB
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 11:29
Clare, I did not sepcify what the education should consist of or who should give it. What I do know is that my father failed to give me any, and my mother's attempt to fill the gap was brave but useless.
Well, it is true that fathers should instruct sons and mothers daughters, ideally.

Obviously, I'm not opposed to parents giving their children instruction, however I don't think it needs to be done from an early age.

Anyhow, here's Divini Illus Magistri, Pope Pius XI

Quote:
 
...
65. Another very grave danger is that naturalism which nowadays invades the field of education in that most delicate matter of purity of morals. Far too common is the error of those who with dangerous assurance and under an ugly term propagate a so-called sex-education, falsely imagining they can forearm youths against the dangers of sensuality by means purely natural, such as a foolhardy initiation and precautionary instruction for all indiscriminately, even in public; and, worse still, by exposing them at an early age to the occasions, in order to accustom them, so it is argued, and as it were to harden them against such dangers.

66. Such persons grievously err in refusing to recognize the inborn weakness of human nature, and the law of which the Apostle speaks, fighting against the law of the mind;[43] and also in ignoring the experience of facts, from which it is clear that, particularly in young people, evil practices are the effect not so much of ignorance of intellect as of weakness of a will exposed to dangerous occasions, and unsupported by the means of grace.

67. In this extremely delicate matter, if, all things considered, some private instruction is found necessary and opportune, from those who hold from God the commission to teach and who have the grace of state, every precaution must be taken. Such precautions are well known in traditional Christian education, and are adequately described by Antoniano cited above, when he says:
Such is our misery and inclination to sin, that often in the very things considered to be remedies against sin, we find occasions for and inducements to sin itself. Hence it is of the highest importance that a good father, while discussing with his son a matter so delicate, should be well on his guard and not descend to details, nor refer to the various ways in which this infernal hydra destroys with its poison so large a portion of the world; otherwise it may happen that instead of extinguishing this fire, he unwittingly stirs or kindles it in the simple and tender heart of the child. Speaking generally, during the period of childhood it suffices to employ those remedies which produce the double effect of opening the door to the virtue of purity and closing the door upon vice.
...

S.A.G.

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Mairtin
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In other words, sex education is not forbidden.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 12:46
In other words, sex education is not forbidden.
What is allowed is:

Quote:
 
...if, all things considered, some private instruction is found necessary and opportune, from those who hold from God the commission to teach and who have the grace of state, every precaution must be taken.


What is not allowed:

Quote:
 
Far too common is the error of those who with dangerous assurance and under an ugly term propagate a so-called sex-education, falsely imagining they can forearm youths against the dangers of sensuality by means purely natural, such as a foolhardy initiation and precautionary instruction for all indiscriminately, even in public; and, worse still, by exposing them at an early age to the occasions,..


Now, that would seem to preclude group instruction, and at a young age, from people who do not have the grace of state.

Now, are we agreed that any sex education should be given privately, individually, and to older children, by their parents? And that sex education should not be given to mixed groups of young children?
S.A.G.

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Gerard

Clare,

"Hold the commission to teach?"

Is the suggestion that this "delicate" education of children be done in private by priests?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 13:45
Clare,

"Hold the commission to teach?"

Is the suggestion that this "delicate" education of children be done in private by priests?

Gerry
I don't know. I also notice that they are to have the grace of state. That'd be parents or priests I guess, given that qualifying as a teacher is not itself a sacrament that confers grace.
S.A.G.

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Mairtin
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Clare
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 13:14
Mairtin
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 12:46
In other words, sex education is not forbidden.
What is allowed is:

Quote:
 
...if, all things considered, some private instruction is found necessary and opportune, from those who hold from God the commission to teach and who have the grace of state, every precaution must be taken.


What is not allowed ...
You said it's forboidden, it's not, you were talking nonsense just as you usually do when you try to select bits out of encyclicals to support your personal interpretation of Church teaching.
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Mairtin
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From the Scottish Catholic Media Office (April 2008)
Quote:
 
Cardinal O'Brien will also commend the work of the Scottish Catholic Education service under its Director Mr Michael McGrath, paying particular tribute to the recently developed ‘Called to Love’ programme a teaching resource for use in Catholic schools when delivering sex and relationships education. He will describe the resource as " a distinctive vision to which young people can aspire - a vision of lives created and growing in love, living for love, being faithful and committed to God’s call to love and being responsible in love." adding "This is another example of how Catholic schools are distinctive in the vision which we offer. We are promoting responsible behaviour and we are providing factual information to young people but we are doing so in an unambiguous moral context. "

How terribly unCatholic :rolleyes:
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 14:23
You said it's forboidden, it's not, you were talking nonsense just as you usually do when you try to select bits out of encyclicals to support your personal interpretation of Church teaching.
Sex education from an early age, which is what OsB said was necessary and what I said was forbidden, is certainly forbidden.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 14:33
From the Scottish Catholic Media Office (April 2008)
Quote:
 
Cardinal O'Brien will also commend the work of the Scottish Catholic Education service under its Director Mr Michael McGrath, paying particular tribute to the recently developed ‘Called to Love’ programme a teaching resource for use in Catholic schools when delivering sex and relationships education. He will describe the resource as " a distinctive vision to which young people can aspire - a vision of lives created and growing in love, living for love, being faithful and committed to God’s call to love and being responsible in love." adding "This is another example of how Catholic schools are distinctive in the vision which we offer. We are promoting responsible behaviour and we are providing factual information to young people but we are doing so in an unambiguous moral context. "

How terribly unCatholic :rolleyes:
It certainly is.
S.A.G.

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Mairtin
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Clare
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 16:28
Sex education from an early age, which is what OsB said was necessary and what I said was forbidden, is certainly forbidden.
So when you say "Now, that would seem to .." you actually mean "is certainly ...", that's useful to know for future reference :rolleyes:

BTW, what is the Church's definition of "an early age"?
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Mairtin
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Clare
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 16:29
Mairtin
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 14:33

How terribly unCatholic :rolleyes:
It certainly is.
You're on a roll here, Clare, in just a couple of days you've managed to dismiss the pope as unCatholic and one of the most respected Cardinals in these islands as unCatholic, are you going to try for three in a row? :fire:
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 17:12
Clare
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 16:29
Mairtin
Wednesday, 9. June 2010, 14:33

How terribly unCatholic :rolleyes:
It certainly is.
You're on a roll here, Clare, in just a couple of days you've managed to dismiss the pope as unCatholic and one of the most respected Cardinals in these islands as unCatholic, are you going to try for three in a row? :fire:
No, Mairtin. I dismissed something the Pope said as unCatholic, and a programme the Cardinal praised as unCatholic. I do not think that unCatholic ideas become Catholic by virtue of being expressed by senior clergy.

If these things are Catholic, then things their predecessors have said are not.

I ask you again, does that make their predecessors unCatholic, do you think, Mairtin?
S.A.G.

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