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Left Wing, Right Wing, moderate, extreme
Topic Started: Tuesday, 1. June 2010, 12:27 (2,135 Views)
Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Monday, 7. June 2010, 22:47
There's a very interesting and relevant editorial in today's Tablet about the Pope's speech last week in Portugal regarding secularism and the Church.

Here's an extract:
Quote:
 
... “The presence of secularism is something normal, but the separation and the opposition between secularism and a culture of faith is something anomalous and must be transcended. The great challenge of the present moment is for the two to come together, and in this way to discover their true identity.”...

Hegelian?
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Derekap
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Hegelian?

Is this the name of a person, a heresy or what? Please, Clare, explain to the ignoramus (me)!
Derekap
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Mairtin
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Rose of York
Monday, 7. June 2010, 23:17
The Tablet
 
There was no call here for a return to the Catholic ascendancy, nor even for the laws of the state to comply with the moral teaching of the Church. His remarks on abortion could almost have been an endorsement of the policy adopted by President Barack Obama in the United States: he praised “all those social and pastoral initiatives aimed at combating the socio-economic and cultural mechanisms which lead to abortion …”

It looks to me as though The Tablet misinterpret the Pope's words. He praised “all those social and pastoral initiatives aimed at combating the socio-economic and cultural mechanisms which lead to abortion …” That is hardly support for abortion.
They don't say that it's support for abortion, Rose - no matter what people think about the Tablet, I doubt if any of them would seriously argue that it is claiming the Pope supports abortion!

This is touching on one of the areas where I think the pro-life movements are falling down. Obama supports "the woman's right to choose" - and that is naturally abhorrent to us Catholics - but he is at the same time introducing measures aimed at reducing the number of women actually seeking abortion. The pro-life movements give him no credit for that, all they seem to care about is the fact that he has supported the existing legislation and to some extent made abortion more easily available for those who do want it. In their view, there is no 'half way house' on abortion and they prefer to lambast Obama as a baby butcher.

I disagree with them. I think we have to face up to the fact that we are not going to get abortion legislation reversed overnight, that we must keep fighting to achieve that but whilst we are doing that, we should encourage every move that reduces the actual number of abortions being carried out - every abortion prevented is a baby saved.

As I understand it, the Tablet view is about the same as may own and they are reading the Pope's words as coming close to also supporting that view.
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Mairtin
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Clare
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 08:39
Hegelian?
No, Catholic.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 17:16
Clare
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 08:39
Hegelian?
No, Catholic.
It most certainly is not Catholic. At least, no Catholic from before 1960 would have recognised it as such.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Derekap
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 15:39
Hegelian?

Is this the name of a person, a heresy or what? Please, Clare, explain to the ignoramus (me)!
Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis

What the Pope said:

Quote:
 
The presence of secularism is something normal, but the separation and the opposition between secularism and a culture of faith is something anomalous and must be transcended. The great challenge of the present moment is for the two to come together, and in this way to discover their true identity.


Whereas St Paul said:

2 Corinthians 6:15
 
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever?


It evidently escaped St Paul that his great challenge was for Belial and Christ to come together and discover their true identity. :wh:
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PJD

Religious Education Series – “Totalitarian State” (Hegel) – RE Tract No. 148



ETHICS - HEGEL


THE ETHICAL STATE (ACCORDING TO HEGEL’S PHILOSOPHY)


"The State is the self-conscious ethical substance, the unification of the family principle with that of civil society" (Encyclopaedia of Philosophical Science § 535).

"The laws express the special provisions for objective freedom" (see §538).

"As a living mind, the state only is as an organized whole, differentiated into particular agencies, which, proceeding from the one notion (though not known as notion) of the reasonable will, continually produce it as their result. […] The constitution is the articulation or organisation of the state-power […].The constitution is existent justice - the actuality of liberty in the development of all its reasonable provisions, § 539).

These expressions used by Hegel summarise his philosophy on the State and on Justice. The state is the only institution fully expressing rationality and free will, through the drafting of laws and by exercising power. Individuals, families and religious communities are totally subordinated to the law and the power of the state. During the last century, the literal implementation of Hegel’s theories led to abuse by totalitarian Nazi and communist regimes, to concentration camps, to ethnic cleansing, genetic selection and the elimination of religion from all forms of public life.

Hegel was not the first to formulate the theory of state totalitarianism. These principles were already present in the Greek world, often conflicting with the primacy of the individual, the family and religious communities. In the Book of Exodus in the Bible, the God-fearing midwives and even the Pharaoh’s daughter did not obey the pharaoh’s order to kill all the Jewish baby boys and saved Moses’ life. In the first book of Chronicles, King David ordered a census of families and of the population to give orders and then severely punished by God with all his people.


The primacy of the individual, the family and the religious communities regards to the state becomes in turn the primacy of natural law over positive law, which when legislating must have the first as a reference point and guarantee the dignity and freedom of individuals, families and Churches.

The freedom of religion and of the Church is the last reference and a guarantee for all dignity and respect of human rights.

The totalitarian idea of the state also crops up in a subtle manner within the democratic system, through the unconditional affirmation of positive law. Parliaments approve by a majority the assassination of children, elderly people and the sick, genetic manipulation, the management of the human body, sexual life, and homosexual partnerships. A kind of explicit insistence in legislating against the traditional family, the inviolability of the individual and of human life, the Church’s freedom, hides an intention to establish total domination over humankind.


All super-national institutions, international financial and communications groups demand to exercise absolute power, managing to influence also local and national legislation, thereby achieving their aims


(Source: Video Conf. 10/2004 – Fr.Paolo Scarafoni - Rector of the pontifical university regina apostolorum)

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Rose of York
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Mairtin
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 17:15
They don't say that it's support for abortion, Rose - no matter what people think about the Tablet, I doubt if any of them would seriously argue that it is claiming the Pope supports abortion!

This is touching on one of the areas where I think the pro-life movements are falling down. Obama supports "the woman's right to choose" - and that is naturally abhorrent to us Catholics - but he is at the same time introducing measures aimed at reducing the number of women actually seeking abortion. The pro-life movements give him no credit for that, all they seem to care about is the fact that he has supported the existing legislation and to some extent made abortion more easily available for those who do want it. In their view, there is no 'half way house' on abortion and they prefer to lambast Obama as a baby butcher.

I disagree with them. I think we have to face up to the fact that we are not going to get abortion legislation reversed overnight, that we must keep fighting to achieve that but whilst we are doing that, we should encourage every move that reduces the actual number of abortions being carried out - every abortion prevented is a baby saved.

As I understand it, the Tablet view is about the same as may own and they are reading the Pope's words as coming close to also supporting that view.
Mairtin I can see your point. Calling Obama a baby butcher will only antagonise the pro abortion camp.

We need to work on the generation who are of an age to have children, gradually convert them to the knowledge that no baby should ever be deliberately killed in the womb. Apparent hatred of people who agree with abortion will have a negative impact.

Somehow we should be aiming at helping the mothers and also in some cases the fathers, find a moral way out of any practical problems that lead them to think abortion is the only way. They would be more likely to listen if all of the bishops in England, Wales and Ireland followed the lead of the Scottish Cardinal who set up an organisation that gives practical and financial help to girls who wanted to keep their babies, but whose families could not or would not be supportive. There are some who grew up in care, so no parental support.
Keep the Faith!

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Mairtin
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Clare
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 17:55
It most certainly is not Catholic.
I guess that brings a whole new meaning to the expression "Is the Pope Catholic?"
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Mairtin
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Rose of York
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 18:16
Mairtin I can see your point. Calling Obama a baby butcher will only antagonise the pro abortion camp.
It's not just that, Rose, I see it more a difference between feeling self-righteous and actually unborn saving babies.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 19:46
Clare
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 17:55
It most certainly is not Catholic.
I guess that brings a whole new meaning to the expression "Is the Pope Catholic?"
No it doesn't.

I could quote plenty of papal statements that I doubt you would recognise as Catholic; would that make those popes not Catholic?

The fact is, things that this pope has said, on many occasions, contradict things his predecessors have said.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 19:48
I see it more a difference between feeling self-righteous and actually unborn saving babies.
Now who's judging?

Perhaps, when Our Lord drove the money-lenders out of the Temple, He did it so He would feel good about Himself. I'm sure He alienated a lot of people when He did it. Quite counterproductive!
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
This is more like it.
Quote:
 
No, Venerable Brethren, We must repeat with the utmost energy in these times of social and intellectual anarchy when everyone takes it upon himself to teach as a teacher and lawmaker - the City cannot be built otherwise than as God has built it; society cannot be setup unless the Church lays the foundations and supervises the work; no, civilization is not something yet to be found, nor is the New City to be built on hazy notions; it has been in existence and still is: it is Christian civilization, it is the Catholic City. It has only to be set up and restored continually against the unremitting attacks of insane dreamers, rebels and miscreants. OMNIA INSTAURARE IN CHRISTO.


Pope St Pius X, in Our Apostolic Mandate where he has a go at the Sillon.

He also wrote of the Sillon:

Quote:
 
They were not sufficiently equipped to be on their guard against the penetration of liberal and Protestant concepts on doctrine and obedience.


Anyone would think liberal and Protestant concepts were a bad thing!

Now, he was a Pope, so I'm sure everyone here agrees with him!

:wh:
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Mairtin
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Clare
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 21:23
Mairtin
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 19:48
I see it more a difference between feeling self-righteous and actually unborn saving babies.
Now who's judging?
Feel free, Clare, to give us some examples of where the pro-life movement has reversed any abortion legislation or achieved something that has actually reduced the numbers of abortions.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 22:18
Clare
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 21:23
Mairtin
Tuesday, 8. June 2010, 19:48
I see it more a difference between feeling self-righteous and actually unborn saving babies.
Now who's judging?
Feel free, Clare, to give us some examples of where the pro-life movement has reversed any abortion legislation or achieved something that has actually reduced the numbers of abortions.
Oh, so if they don't succeed, they're only doing it to feel self-righteous. I see.

People who fail are self-righteous. Now I get it.

This is ignoring the fact that there have actually been success stories. People praying the rosary outside abortion clinics have managed to make some women re-consider. There's more to it than calling Obama a baby butcher.

Anyhow, has your preferred method proved successful, Mairtin?
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