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Left Wing, Right Wing, moderate, extreme
Topic Started: Tuesday, 1. June 2010, 12:27 (2,137 Views)
Mairtin
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Rose of York
Sunday, 6. June 2010, 18:40
I would think all politicians, including atheists, know that religion affects society at large. Education and medicine in particular have religious aspects. So does adoption.
Nowhere near as much as it used to, Rose. I would suspect that only a very small minority of doctors or teachers nowadays regard religious aspects of their work as important. And we've seen first hand that religious views were completely ignored when it came to single sex couples.

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Sometimes antipathy towards a religion necessitates police activity.

That's a slightly different thing to what I meant but I sense that society at large is becoming more and more disenchanted with the cost - financial and otherwise - of accommodating people's religious beliefs. Quite a few, for example, are complaining about the cost to the country of hosting a state visit from the Pope.
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Mairtin
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Clare
Sunday, 6. June 2010, 21:58
... to be consistently pro-life, you need to oppose contraception ...
I don't oppose contraception, therefore I'm not pro-life.

Thank you, Clare, for such a clear demonstration of the point I was trying to make.
Edited by Mairtin, Sunday, 6. June 2010, 22:07.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Sunday, 6. June 2010, 22:05
Clare
Sunday, 6. June 2010, 21:58
... to be consistently pro-life, you need to oppose contraception ...
I don't oppose contraception, therefore I'm not pro-life.

Thank you, Clare, for such a clear demonstration of the point I was trying to make.
You missed out the word "consistently", Mairtin.

But you make the point yourself fairly often by dissenting from Church teaching on these things, and saying the Church lacks credibility.

I don't see why you are beyond criticism and yet the Church isn't.

You criticise Church teaching, but if I criticise your own views you get cross, and have the temerity to say pro-lifers are "absorbed" with their views (which are consistent with Catholic teaching)!
S.A.G.

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Mairtin
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Clare
Monday, 7. June 2010, 09:18
You criticise Church teaching, but if I criticise your own views you get cross
No, Clare, I'm not cross, your views on my Catholicism are totally irrelevant to me; I simply have no interest in being lectured about my Catholicism by somebody who rejects papal authority, dismisses the activity of recent popes as "antics" and supports a schismatic cult against the mainstream Catholic Church.

I also have no interest in continuing a debate on how we can best fight abortion with somebody who is totally opposed to changing an approach that has abysmally failed even slow down, let alone halt or reverse, the increasing availability of abortion throughout the world. It's simply a waste of your time and of my time.
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Clare
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Mairtin
Monday, 7. June 2010, 10:06
Clare
Monday, 7. June 2010, 09:18
You criticise Church teaching, but if I criticise your own views you get cross
No, Clare, I'm not cross, your views on my Catholicism are totally irrelevant to me; I simply have no interest in being lectured about my Catholicism by somebody who rejects papal authority, dismisses the activity of recent popes as "antics" and supports a schismatic cult against the mainstream Catholic Church.

I also have no interest in continuing a debate on how we can best fight abortion with somebody who is totally opposed to changing an approach that has abysmally failed even slow down, let alone halt or reverse, the increasing availability of abortion throughout the world. It's simply a waste of your time and of my time.
That's one of many ways in which we differ, Mairtin. I am prepared to continue debating with people who disagree with me.

And there is no such thing as "your Catholicism" or "my Catholicism." There is Catholicism. It is independent of your or my views.

Also, you reject the teaching of all the Popes, including recent ones, if you believe contraception is all right.

So, I still fail to see why you seem to think you occupy the moral high ground here.

Gnats and camels. You keep getting them mixed up!
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Rose of York
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How many times have Clare and Mairtin had this same conversation?

It seems to me that it we need to look at how the Church can make progress in getting its message about abortion across to government and the people at large, not about individual opinions about the teaching of the Church.
Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Rose of York
Monday, 7. June 2010, 13:43
How many times have Clare and Mairtin had this same conversation?
Yeah, I know, I'm sorry. :bl:

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It seems to me that it we need to look at how the Church can make progress in getting its message about abortion across to government and the people at large, not about individual opinions about the teaching of the Church.


Opinions on Church teaching are going to come into it though. If Mairtin believes that the pro-life movement should drop the issue of contraception, and I believe they should do no such thing, then that's because we disagree on the issue. I can't see how our opinions on Church teaching can be left out of it.
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Rose of York
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Clare
Monday, 7. June 2010, 14:03
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It seems to me that it we need to look at how the Church can make progress in getting its message about abortion across to government and the people at large, not about individual opinions about the teaching of the Church.


Opinions on Church teaching are going to come into it though. If Mairtin believes that the pro-life movement should drop the issue of contraception, and I believe they should do no such thing, then that's because we disagree on the issue. I can't see how our opinions on Church teaching can be left out of it.
They could try concentrating their efforts, first, on direct intended abortion.
Keep the Faith!

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Mairtin
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Rose of York
Monday, 7. June 2010, 13:43
How many times have Clare and Mairtin had this same conversation?
Far too many, Rose, that's why I said "I'm fed up with that sort of rubbish and I'm sure other people are too" nine posts ago; I just wish I had left it at that.

Rose of York
 
It seems to me that it we need to look at how the Church can make progress in getting its message about abortion across to government and the people at large, not about individual opinions about the teaching of the Church.

I'd dearly love to do that but I find that this subject always seems to end up as a slagging match about faithfulness to Church teaching.

I don't think that anyone can seriously argue about the abject failure of current approaches to achieve any alleviation of the abortion scourge that affects society at large, something that I believe is a major contributor to wider societal problems, not just the direct impact of abortion itself.

I also think that nobody can argue seriously about our Church's lack of credibility. As you pointed out in another thread, 1 in 15 of the population in the UK are Catholic; I think that is a dreadful figure, we are totally failing totally to convince 85% of the population about the message that Christ left in our care. A good starting point might be to figure out how many of that 85% aren't even aware of our message.

I set out my own stall in post #53 about the approach I think should be taken. Just one point of clarification - I didn't call for changes in the teaching on contraception, I simply suggested that the two subjects of contraception and abortion should not be so intimately linked together, something that the Church herself does not do.

I would be delighted to participate in a rational debate on those ideas I put forward plus other people's ideas but I will not be engaging in any further slagging matches about my personal Catholicism.
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Clare
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Rose of York
Monday, 7. June 2010, 15:17
Clare
Monday, 7. June 2010, 14:03
...
Opinions on Church teaching are going to come into it though. If Mairtin believes that the pro-life movement should drop the issue of contraception, and I believe they should do no such thing, then that's because we disagree on the issue. I can't see how our opinions on Church teaching can be left out of it.
They could try concentrating their efforts, first, on direct intended abortion.
Maybe, but that might involve putting the cart before the horse.
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Clare
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Mairtin
Monday, 7. June 2010, 15:24
I don't think that anyone can seriously argue about the abject failure of current approaches to achieve any alleviation of the abortion scourge that affects society at large, something that I believe is a major contributor to wider societal problems, not just the direct impact of abortion itself.
I agree that abortion affects society at large, and I think contraception does too, and that the two issues are pretty much the same issue, or at least overlapping (Venn diagram style!)

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I also think that nobody can argue seriously about our Church's lack of credibility.


If gaining credibility requires the Church selling out, then we'll just have to live without credibility for the foreseeable, and pray and work for society to come to its senses.

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I set out my own stall in post #53 about the approach I think should be taken. Just one point of clarification - I didn't call for changes in the teaching on contraception, I simply suggested that the two subjects of contraception and abortion should not be so intimately linked together, something that the Church herself does not do.


I'm not sure that the Church does not link the two issues, but maybe, in order to regain credibility, she should do so more explicitly.
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Clare
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Evangelium Vitae, by Pope John Paul II

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13...
It is frequently asserted that contraception, if made safe and available to all, is the most effective remedy against abortion. The Catholic Church is then accused of actually promoting abortion, because she obstinately continues to teach the moral unlawfulness of contraception. When looked at carefully, this objection is clearly unfounded. It may be that many people use contraception with a view to excluding the subsequent temptation of abortion. But the negative values inherent in the "contraceptive mentality"-which is very different from responsible parenthood, lived in respect for the full truth of the conjugal act-are such that they in fact strengthen this temptation when an unwanted life is conceived. Indeed, the pro- abortion culture is especially strong precisely where the Church's teaching on contraception is rejected. Certainly, from the moral point of view contraception and abortion are specifically different evils: the former contradicts the full truth of the sexual act as the proper expression of conjugal love, while the latter destroys the life of a human being; the former is opposed to the virtue of chastity in marriage, the latter is opposed to the virtue of justice and directly violates the divine commandment "You shall not kill".

But despite their differences of nature and moral gravity, contraception and abortion are often closely connected, as fruits of the same tree...

S.A.G.

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Mairtin
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Clare
Monday, 7. June 2010, 15:35
If gaining credibility requires the Church selling out ...
Clare

I have no intentention of getting drawn back into this with you but I would just like to clarify that I said nothing in my post about the Church "selling out" nor was that in any way implied.
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Mairtin
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Clare
Monday, 7. June 2010, 15:35
... the two issues are pretty much the same issue, or at least overlapping (Venn diagram style!)
That comment, however, does raise an important wider point.

ALL areas of Church teaching overlap to some extent and the ones that I see particularly overlapping in the 'right to life' arena are abortion, capital punishment and the concept of a just war - they all result in the taking of life.

I would like to see these three tied together as I think together they could stimulate a positive public debate (I mean outside this forum).

Unfortunately - and I'm not just trying to 'have a go' here - I generally find that those most who are most vociferous about abortion are often those who are equally vociferous about defending capital punishment and war :wall:
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Clare
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Mairtin
Monday, 7. June 2010, 16:16
Unfortunately - and I'm not just trying to 'have a go' here - I generally find that those most who are most vociferous about abortion are often those who are equally vociferous about defending capital punishment and war :wall:
Guess what, though. Church teaching supports the death penalty, and just war, although, a just war is nigh on impossible these days. The death penalty, though, is certainly supported by Church teaching.

Quite often, those who are most pro-abortion are also anti-death penalty. Now that is bizarre. Supporting the killing of the innocent, while opposing the killing of the guilty.
S.A.G.

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