Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Hans Kung's Open Letter
Topic Started: Saturday, 17. April 2010, 00:19 (4,284 Views)
PJD

"Even perfect/imperfect is not without its problems as Jesus told us to be perfect as Our Father in heaven is perfect."

Yes I agree - another seemingly contradiction/or opposing thought.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

OsullivanB
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:25
Gerard
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:15
OsB

To engage with your earlier comment - I think peoples' Holyness comes from God - its his Holyness that makes people Holy.

Gerry
Well, yes. Where else would it come from?

It would be possible for people to think they got it by their own efforts.

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

Not for Catholics though.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
James
James
Gerard
Wednesday, 21. April 2010, 11:00
James,

I found something more specific:

Quote:
 
Members of the ascetic Jewish sect of the Essenes were known for their emphasis on celibacy (Josephus, Antiquities 18.1.5.21; Jewish War 2.8.2.121-122; Philo, Hypothetica 11.14-18).


http://www.leaderu.com/theology/wasjesusmarried.html

There was a practice of remaining single for God already present in Judaism (actually this is often sited as evidence for mary's virginity). So if the Jewish community accepted singless for dedication to God then they would have recognised this in Jesus.

By the way - it seems that the Essenes are the Jewish sect closest to Jesus' approach. There is some indication that the "problem" over which day the Last Supper was celebrated can be solved if Jesus celebrated the passover as calculated by the Essenes. Also, there is much speculation that John the Baptist came from the essene community.

Gerry
I have read about this background Gerry also connecting John the Baptist.
Many of the thoughts of Jesus also seemed influenced by this teaching.
I know many will say that Jesus was influenced by the FATHER alone but to be true man he must also needed to have been abandonded to the human element from a child.

In order not to give any wrong doubts in anybody's mind here, one must always look at these type of discussions against a backgroud of the resurrection.
The purpose is to tell us that there is life beyond death and only Christ stood in both worlds after his death on the cross.
That is the central issue.
The rest is speculation and I agree, the essenes may very, very probably had a big influence on the young man's thoughts and those of John the Baptist along with many more.

If so, I do like their way of seeing things and could be very influenced myself.

James
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anne-Marie

Sorry, but I just don't buy that, James.
If Jesus spent time with the Essenes and agreed with their view, then it would have been because God considered their way to be good and right.
The notion that Jesus was somehow 'influenced' (had His view altered) by a bunch of humans is ludicrous, because then He would not have been God.
Jesus was God made man, not man made God!
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

May I jump in? In my own post I said this:

Quote:
 
By the way - it seems that the Essenes are the Jewish sect closest to Jesus' approach


By saying the essenes were closest to Jesus I was indicating that Jesus had his own approach which was Truth. The essenes seemed to have discerned more of the Truth than other sects.

But I also believe Jesus "grew in knowledge and understanding" He would have been influenced in by Jospeh and Mary - and presumably others. he would have recognised right things when he saw them. Perhaps even in the Essenes.

Jesus was not born a baby with God's brain. He was born a baby with a baby's brain. To put it another way, perhaps starkly, someone had to toilet train Jesus.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Quicunque vult

This thread seems to have missed the definitive put-down of Kung's nonsense: see here

QV
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
CARLO
Member Avatar

Quicunque vult
Sunday, 25. April 2010, 22:00
This thread seems to have missed the definitive put-down of Kung's nonsense: see here

QV
Oh dear!

I prefer my humble posting of 16 April at 23:19 hrs!

The stuff in your link is too long to read without falling asleep and is the sort of material produced by the Order of the Green Ink!

As one adherent puts it in his/her comments "Weapons grade text!".

:sotc:

Salva nos
Save us!


CARLO
Edited by CARLO, Wednesday, 28. April 2010, 23:54.
Judica me Deus
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
CARLO
Monday, 26. April 2010, 19:50
Quicunque vult
Sunday, 25. April 2010, 22:00
This thread seems to have missed the definitive put-down of Kung's nonsense: see here

QV
Oh dear!

I prefer my humble posting of 23 April at 23:19 hrs!
Where is that post, CARLO? I cannot find it.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mairtin
Member Avatar

Quicunque vult
Sunday, 25. April 2010, 22:00
This thread seems to have missed the definitive put-down of Kung's nonsense: see here

QV
I wouldn't see it at all as the "definitive put-down", on the contrary, Weigel makes the exact same mistake as Kung - he buries his message in a morass of personal animosity.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
James
James
Anne-Marie
Friday, 23. April 2010, 10:41
Sorry, but I just don't buy that, James.
If Jesus spent time with the Essenes and agreed with their view, then it would have been because God considered their way to be good and right.
The notion that Jesus was somehow 'influenced' (had His view altered) by a bunch of humans is ludicrous, because then He would not have been God.
Jesus was God made man, not man made God!
He was also true man, Anne Marie.
That is the point .
TRUE MAN of flesh and blood.
Otherwise the sacrifice is not perfect.
Birth, life, death as a human like the rest of us .

The final years were enlightened without shadow of doubt, according to the scrpitures.
Before then, little is known to suggest this type of impression on the surroundings.

Edited by James, Tuesday, 27. April 2010, 04:56.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"Jesus was God made man, not man made God!"

Yes very true Anne-Marie. Also true that Christ's human personality was immediately absorbed by his Divine Personality - Catholic doctrine. We have had that come up on here before i.e. Divine = Person = Personality.

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

What are you suggesting there PJD?
That Jesus did not have to learn things?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"What are you suggesting there PJD?
That Jesus did not have to learn things?
Gerry"


I am not 'suggesting' anything Gerry other than what I wrote.

Nevertheless I quite understand your question. The point is that His Divine Personality, which contains His human personality, can brush aside anything it wishes. To put it more bluntly (and I don't think this is doctrine, merely my way of looking at it) - His Divine choice was for the child Jesus to have to learn things, but that choice was not obligatory to the Godhead.

Bit messy, but the best way I can respond Gerry.

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

Seems right to me, PJD.
And I think it is doctrine:

Philipians 2:6,7

Quote:
 
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,


Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic »
Add Reply