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| Hans Kung's Open Letter | |
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| Topic Started: Saturday, 17. April 2010, 00:19 (4,284 Views) | |
| PJD | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:35 Post #106 |
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"Even perfect/imperfect is not without its problems as Jesus told us to be perfect as Our Father in heaven is perfect." Yes I agree - another seemingly contradiction/or opposing thought. |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:35 Post #107 |
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It would be possible for people to think they got it by their own efforts. |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 21:07 Post #108 |
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Not for Catholics though. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| James | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 23:56 Post #109 |
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James
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I have read about this background Gerry also connecting John the Baptist. Many of the thoughts of Jesus also seemed influenced by this teaching. I know many will say that Jesus was influenced by the FATHER alone but to be true man he must also needed to have been abandonded to the human element from a child. In order not to give any wrong doubts in anybody's mind here, one must always look at these type of discussions against a backgroud of the resurrection. The purpose is to tell us that there is life beyond death and only Christ stood in both worlds after his death on the cross. That is the central issue. The rest is speculation and I agree, the essenes may very, very probably had a big influence on the young man's thoughts and those of John the Baptist along with many more. If so, I do like their way of seeing things and could be very influenced myself. James |
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| Anne-Marie | Friday, 23. April 2010, 10:41 Post #110 |
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Sorry, but I just don't buy that, James. If Jesus spent time with the Essenes and agreed with their view, then it would have been because God considered their way to be good and right. The notion that Jesus was somehow 'influenced' (had His view altered) by a bunch of humans is ludicrous, because then He would not have been God. Jesus was God made man, not man made God! |
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Anne-Marie FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI | |
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| Gerard | Friday, 23. April 2010, 13:04 Post #111 |
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May I jump in? In my own post I said this:
By saying the essenes were closest to Jesus I was indicating that Jesus had his own approach which was Truth. The essenes seemed to have discerned more of the Truth than other sects. But I also believe Jesus "grew in knowledge and understanding" He would have been influenced in by Jospeh and Mary - and presumably others. he would have recognised right things when he saw them. Perhaps even in the Essenes. Jesus was not born a baby with God's brain. He was born a baby with a baby's brain. To put it another way, perhaps starkly, someone had to toilet train Jesus. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Quicunque vult | Sunday, 25. April 2010, 22:00 Post #112 |
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This thread seems to have missed the definitive put-down of Kung's nonsense: see here QV |
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| CARLO | Monday, 26. April 2010, 19:50 Post #113 |
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Oh dear! I prefer my humble posting of 16 April at 23:19 hrs! The stuff in your link is too long to read without falling asleep and is the sort of material produced by the Order of the Green Ink! As one adherent puts it in his/her comments "Weapons grade text!". Salva nos Save us! CARLO Edited by CARLO, Wednesday, 28. April 2010, 23:54.
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| Judica me Deus | |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 26. April 2010, 20:00 Post #114 |
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Administrator
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Where is that post, CARLO? I cannot find it. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Mairtin | Monday, 26. April 2010, 23:12 Post #115 |
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I wouldn't see it at all as the "definitive put-down", on the contrary, Weigel makes the exact same mistake as Kung - he buries his message in a morass of personal animosity. |
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| James | Monday, 26. April 2010, 23:33 Post #116 |
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James
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He was also true man, Anne Marie. That is the point . TRUE MAN of flesh and blood. Otherwise the sacrifice is not perfect. Birth, life, death as a human like the rest of us . The final years were enlightened without shadow of doubt, according to the scrpitures. Before then, little is known to suggest this type of impression on the surroundings. Edited by James, Tuesday, 27. April 2010, 04:56.
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| PJD | Tuesday, 27. April 2010, 16:56 Post #117 |
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"Jesus was God made man, not man made God!" Yes very true Anne-Marie. Also true that Christ's human personality was immediately absorbed by his Divine Personality - Catholic doctrine. We have had that come up on here before i.e. Divine = Person = Personality. PJD |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 27. April 2010, 17:05 Post #118 |
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What are you suggesting there PJD? That Jesus did not have to learn things? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| PJD | Tuesday, 27. April 2010, 19:11 Post #119 |
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"What are you suggesting there PJD? That Jesus did not have to learn things? Gerry" I am not 'suggesting' anything Gerry other than what I wrote. Nevertheless I quite understand your question. The point is that His Divine Personality, which contains His human personality, can brush aside anything it wishes. To put it more bluntly (and I don't think this is doctrine, merely my way of looking at it) - His Divine choice was for the child Jesus to have to learn things, but that choice was not obligatory to the Godhead. Bit messy, but the best way I can respond Gerry. PJD |
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| Gerard | Tuesday, 27. April 2010, 20:13 Post #120 |
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Seems right to me, PJD. And I think it is doctrine: Philipians 2:6,7
Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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7:54 PM Jul 11