Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Hans Kung's Open Letter
Topic Started: Saturday, 17. April 2010, 00:19 (4,285 Views)
PJD

"I agree with your statement here and was wondering, in view of this, how you feel about the title "Holy Father" for the Bishop of Rome?"

I feel that we are obviously using the words Holy in a difference sense; just as we use the word Father. Only God is Holy is used in the absolute sense, whereas regarding the bishop of Rome it is used in the finite sense - and even then as a sign of respect for his office - nevertheless finite at all times and subject to improvement.

Some difficulty in trying to get around that Gerry (smile)

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

PJD
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:31
"It seems logical to me that the second person of the Trinity would not take a human wife."

I agree Gerry on this point.

It is true that Christ was perfectly human and, in a similar line of sense as Gerry used above, it seems logical that the Second Person of the Trinity would not take upon Himself the act of sinning. All of us sin, but Jesus never did - which does not take anything away from His total experience of humanity.

PJD
PJD

You've totally lost me. What does sin have to do with this issue?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

PJD
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:41
"I agree with your statement here and was wondering, in view of this, how you feel about the title "Holy Father" for the Bishop of Rome?"

I feel that we are obviously using the words Holy in a difference sense; just as we use the word Father. Only God is Holy is used in the absolute sense, whereas regarding the bishop of Rome it is used in the finite sense - and even then as a sign of respect for his office - nevertheless finite at all times and subject to improvement.

Some difficulty in trying to get around that Gerry (smile)

PJD
Is the position then this?

Only God is Holy.

But men and women may be holy.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"You've totally lost me. What does sin have to do with this issue?"

Simply saying that Jesus did not have to do everything that we ordinary humans are in a habit of doing, such as taking a wife. It's just another piece of logic, that's all - emphasising that He had a choice.

I believe He chose not to OsB- you may believe He chose to. If He did, then one might well ask you to produce her.

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"Is the position then this?

Only God is Holy.

But men and women may be holy."


Absolutely OsB. Your short explanation is much better put than mine I might add.

Now perhaps you would like to explain what your query is about the Mass. Or Holy Water. I searched Kung at the front for Mass and only came up with one mention, Holy Water did not appear.

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

PJD
 
I believe He chose not to OsB- you may believe He chose to. If He did, then one might well ask you to produce her.

I really dislike being told what I may believe (I don't mean dogma and doctrine). You don't know my opinon on this, as I haven't expressed one. This is because I don't have one. However, it seems to me that your answer makes it clear that sin has absolutely nothing to do with the question.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

PJD
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:58
"Is the position then this?

Only God is Holy.

But men and women may be holy."


Absolutely OsB. Your short explanation is much better put than mine I might add.

Now perhaps you would like to explain what your query is about the Mass. Or Holy Water. I searched Kung at the front for Mass and only came up with one mention, Holy Water did not appear.

PJD
All is now clear, except why it should be worth distinguishing between Holy and holy. What is the useful purpose?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"I really dislike being told what I may believe."

I did think about writing this OsB; and apologise that you have been offended. I did of course mean to use the word 'you' in the universal sense, but it did not come out like that. Which was a hurried wrong.

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"all is now clear, except why it should be worth distinguishing between Holy and holy. What is the useful purpose? "

I don't really know OsB. The only advantaqge when this sort of problem with language crops up is I suppose the opportunity to distinguish between finite and infinite, perfect and imperfect etc.

PJD

Edited - sorry I forgot to mention the Holy Mass. This is of course perfect, not imperfect. An important distinction.
Edited by PJD, Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:15.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

PJD
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:41
"I agree with your statement here and was wondering, in view of this, how you feel about the title "Holy Father" for the Bishop of Rome?"

I feel that we are obviously using the words Holy in a difference sense; just as we use the word Father. Only God is Holy is used in the absolute sense, whereas regarding the bishop of Rome it is used in the finite sense - and even then as a sign of respect for his office - nevertheless finite at all times and subject to improvement.

Some difficulty in trying to get around that Gerry (smile)

PJD
Thanks PJD,

No tricks - just a genuine question which I cant resolve.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

OsB

To engage with your earlier comment - I think peoples' Holyness comes from God - its his Holyness that makes people Holy.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

Gerard
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:15
OsB

To engage with your earlier comment - I think peoples' Holyness comes from God - its his Holyness that makes people Holy.

Gerry
Well, yes. Where else would it come from?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

OsB

please note that I have edited my earlier reply to you above. I do not expect you to necessarily comment, but I feel it is necessary for me to mention it.

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

PJD
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:11
"all is now clear, except why it should be worth distinguishing between Holy and holy. What is the useful purpose? "

I don't really know OsB. The only advantaqge when this sort of problem with language crops up is I suppose the opportunity to distinguish between finite and infinite, perfect and imperfect etc.

PJD

Edited - sorry I forgot to mention the Holy Mass. This is of course perfect, not imperfect. An important distinction.
Even perfect/imperfect is not without its problems as Jesus told us to be perfect as Our Father in heaven is perfect.

If we say God is Holy, is that different from saying God is God, or just God is, or God is Who is, or plain God? What does it mean to say that God is Holy?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

PJD
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:07
"I really dislike being told what I may believe."

I did think about writing this OsB; and apologise that you have been offended. I did of course mean to use the word 'you' in the universal sense, but it did not come out like that. Which was a hurried wrong.

PJD
And mine a grumpily hasty response. Sorry.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic »
Add Reply