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| Hans Kung's Open Letter | |
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| Topic Started: Saturday, 17. April 2010, 00:19 (4,285 Views) | |
| PJD | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:41 Post #91 |
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"I agree with your statement here and was wondering, in view of this, how you feel about the title "Holy Father" for the Bishop of Rome?" I feel that we are obviously using the words Holy in a difference sense; just as we use the word Father. Only God is Holy is used in the absolute sense, whereas regarding the bishop of Rome it is used in the finite sense - and even then as a sign of respect for his office - nevertheless finite at all times and subject to improvement. Some difficulty in trying to get around that Gerry (smile) PJD |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:41 Post #92 |
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PJD You've totally lost me. What does sin have to do with this issue? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:47 Post #93 |
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Is the position then this? Only God is Holy. But men and women may be holy. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| PJD | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:54 Post #94 |
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"You've totally lost me. What does sin have to do with this issue?" Simply saying that Jesus did not have to do everything that we ordinary humans are in a habit of doing, such as taking a wife. It's just another piece of logic, that's all - emphasising that He had a choice. I believe He chose not to OsB- you may believe He chose to. If He did, then one might well ask you to produce her. PJD |
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| PJD | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:58 Post #95 |
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"Is the position then this? Only God is Holy. But men and women may be holy." Absolutely OsB. Your short explanation is much better put than mine I might add. Now perhaps you would like to explain what your query is about the Mass. Or Holy Water. I searched Kung at the front for Mass and only came up with one mention, Holy Water did not appear. PJD |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:58 Post #96 |
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I really dislike being told what I may believe (I don't mean dogma and doctrine). You don't know my opinon on this, as I haven't expressed one. This is because I don't have one. However, it seems to me that your answer makes it clear that sin has absolutely nothing to do with the question. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 19:59 Post #97 |
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All is now clear, except why it should be worth distinguishing between Holy and holy. What is the useful purpose? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| PJD | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:07 Post #98 |
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"I really dislike being told what I may believe." I did think about writing this OsB; and apologise that you have been offended. I did of course mean to use the word 'you' in the universal sense, but it did not come out like that. Which was a hurried wrong. PJD |
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| PJD | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:11 Post #99 |
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"all is now clear, except why it should be worth distinguishing between Holy and holy. What is the useful purpose? " I don't really know OsB. The only advantaqge when this sort of problem with language crops up is I suppose the opportunity to distinguish between finite and infinite, perfect and imperfect etc. PJD Edited - sorry I forgot to mention the Holy Mass. This is of course perfect, not imperfect. An important distinction. Edited by PJD, Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:15.
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| Gerard | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:13 Post #100 |
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Thanks PJD, No tricks - just a genuine question which I cant resolve. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:15 Post #101 |
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OsB To engage with your earlier comment - I think peoples' Holyness comes from God - its his Holyness that makes people Holy. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:25 Post #102 |
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Well, yes. Where else would it come from? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| PJD | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:27 Post #103 |
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OsB please note that I have edited my earlier reply to you above. I do not expect you to necessarily comment, but I feel it is necessary for me to mention it. PJD |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:28 Post #104 |
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Even perfect/imperfect is not without its problems as Jesus told us to be perfect as Our Father in heaven is perfect. If we say God is Holy, is that different from saying God is God, or just God is, or God is Who is, or plain God? What does it mean to say that God is Holy? |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| OsullivanB | Thursday, 22. April 2010, 20:32 Post #105 |
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And mine a grumpily hasty response. Sorry. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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7:54 PM Jul 11