Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Hans Kung's Open Letter
Topic Started: Saturday, 17. April 2010, 00:19 (4,286 Views)
OsullivanB

St Paul appears to think differently, as do other writers of the Bible.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

OsB

Happy to engage on that, but wish to read what PJD has to say first.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

He might care to offer his thoughts on Holy Mass at the same time.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Tuesday, 20. April 2010, 20:00
Rose of York
Tuesday, 20. April 2010, 19:47
Gerard we know Peter had a mother in law, but we do not know whether his marital status was married or widower.


Rose

Quote:
 
Do we not have the right to take along a Christian wife, as do the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 1 Cor 9:5


Well, if he was a widower at the last supper looks like he got married again. :cool:

Gerry
Funny. The Douay renders that verse thus:
Quote:
 
Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?


and this is the footnote:
Quote:
 
A woman, a sister"... Some erroneous translators have corrupted this text by rendering it, a sister, a wife: whereas, it is certain, St. Paul had no wife (chap. 7 ver. 7, 8) and that he only speaks of such devout women, as, according to the custom of the Jewish nation, waited upon the preachers of the gospel, and supplied them with necessaries.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

Clare,

Just shows the lengths people (even people in authority) are prepared to go to in order to prop up their pet "dogmas". Even when they are neither dogmas nor doctrines but just a human rule.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

Both are legitimate translations and both have had their champions for many centuries, according to the Ignatius commentary, which is quite long on this point, and which I don't have time to type now. The Greek is adelphen gunaika. "Gyne" can mean (among other things!) woman, lady, wife, mistress, widow,or servant.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

Equally likely to have been mistress then?

Now, Scripture says Peter has a mother in law and later He takes around with him either:

a woman,
a mistress,
a widow,
a female servant
or a wife

Which is the more likely?

The problem for the "Peter was not married brigade" is that they have to explain away two different and rather simple texts that say he was.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Thursday, 22. April 2010, 15:39.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

OsullivanB
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 15:30
Both are legitimate translations and both have had their champions for many centuries, according to the Ignatius commentary, which is quite long on this point, and which I don't have time to type now. The Greek is adelphen gunaika. "Gyne" can mean (among other things!) woman, lady, wife, mistress, widow,or servant.
OsB

Is "sister" a legitimate translation?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

Yes. It is the literal meaning of "adelphe(n)", familiar to us from "Philadelphia", the city of brotherly love.

So adelphen gunaika = sister wife/woman/...
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

Gerard
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 15:38
Equally likely to have been mistress then?

Now, Scripture says Peter has a mother in law and later He takes around with him either:

a woman,
a mistress,
a widow,
a female servant
or a wife

Which is the more likely?

The problem for the "Peter was not married brigade" is that they have to explain away two different and rather simple texts that say he was.

Gerry
No, of course they are not equally likely. I posted the range given in order simply to illustrate that translators very often have to make a judgment about which of a range of possiblities constitutes the best rendering of a word. Translating is more art than science, and this is quite a good illustration of why. Incidentally it is the same Greek word that Jesus uses when addressing Mary at Cana as "woman".
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gerard

That was rather my point OsB,

which was more likely a woman or a wife (or a woman meaning wife - which we still use today)

All modern translations plump for wife - because they judge that the more likely choice.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

A rare example of the accurate application of the saying "your guess is as good as mine".
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Clare
Member Avatar
Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Gerard
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 15:22
Clare,

Just shows the lengths people (even people in authority) are prepared to go to in order to prop up their pet "dogmas". Even when they are neither dogmas nor doctrines but just a human rule.
It doesn't seem that great a length to me, Gerry.

I suppose Hans Kung does not have any pet "dogmas", and does not go to any great lengths to prop them up.

:wh:
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mairtin
Member Avatar

OsullivanB
Thursday, 22. April 2010, 14:57
He might care to offer his thoughts on Holy Mass at the same time.
And Holy Water.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PJD

"It seems logical to me that the second person of the Trinity would not take a human wife."

I agree Gerry on this point.

It is true that Christ was perfectly human and, in a similar line of sense as Gerry used above, it seems logical that the Second Person of the Trinity would not take upon Himself the act of sinning. All of us sin, but Jesus never did - which does not take anything away from His total experience of humanity.

PJD
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic »
Add Reply