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Hans Kung's Open Letter
Topic Started: Saturday, 17. April 2010, 00:19 (4,287 Views)
Gerard

Quote:
 
Priests have never been allowed to marry (without having to resign).


Thats a very big claim, which would be hard to prove.

Quote:
 
Marrying ordained men is unprecedented.


But that claim is very easily disproved.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Clare
Tuesday, 20. April 2010, 16:01
That the Church has ordained men who were already married is a different matter.

Marrying ordained men is unprecedented.

He should know that!
Is there any evidence of the marital status of each one of the Apostles before and after the Last Supper?
Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Peter was married

Well done Rose

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Gerard we know Peter had a mother in law, but we do not know whether his marital status was married or widower.

What of the other apostles? If they were all single or widowed when they were called by Jesus, and they were told not to marry, it seems odd that there was no mention of that, in the New Testament.

Quote:
 
1 Timothy
Chapter 3
1 The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task. 2 Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher, 3 no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way; 5 for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil; * 7 moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. * 8 Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for gain; 9 they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then if they prove themselves blameless let them serve as deacons. 11 The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husband of one wife, and let them manage their children and their households well;



Keep the Faith!

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Gerard

Rose of York
Tuesday, 20. April 2010, 19:47
Gerard we know Peter had a mother in law, but we do not know whether his marital status was married or widower.


Rose

Quote:
 
Do we not have the right to take along a Christian wife, as do the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 1 Cor 9:5


Well, if he was a widower at the last supper looks like he got married again. :cool:

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 20. April 2010, 20:00.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

But seriously,

Jewish men got married - they were considered as not yet men if not married*. And there are traditions about Peter's wife and family. Apparently consisting of one daughter, who became sick or disabled at the age of 10 but survived and died in 98 AD.

Gerry

* I feel the need to reference that.
In the book "The Twelve" by Bernard Ruffin he says this on p20:
"Many of the Rabbis considered that a batchelor was not even a man in the full sense"

Excellent book - very easy read if anyone interested.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 20. April 2010, 20:47.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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James
James
Gerard
Tuesday, 20. April 2010, 20:03
But seriously,

Jewish men got married - they were considered as not yet men if not married*. And there are traditions about Peter's wife and family. Apparently consisting of one daughter, who became sick or disabled at the age of 10 but survived and died in 98 AD.

Gerry

* I feel the need to reference that.
In the book "The Twelve" by Bernard Ruffin he says this on p20:
"Many of the Rabbis considered that a batchelor was not even a man in the full sense"

Excellent book - very easy read if anyone interested.

Gerry
I wonder how they would have viewed Jesus, Gerry?
But then I know what you are going to say - "read the gospels !"
But the angle I am coming from is :-
They never seemed to refer to his not being married as "non- manly" though or as "not to be taken too seriously" in that regard.

James
Edited by James, Wednesday, 21. April 2010, 10:11.
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Mairtin
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As far as I know, James, the Gospels tell us nothing either way about Jesus's marital state and some historians argue that He may well have been married before His public ministry commenced (bear in mind that we know absolutely nothing about His life from the age of twelve to the age of thirty).

There is a tradition in the Catholic Church - probably most Christian churches - that He was never married but I don't know if that is just a popular legend or whether it is based on anything more substantive; I don't think, for example, that any of the Church Fathers ever commented on His marital state.
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Gerard

An interesting point James - to which I do not know the answer. I read something along these lines a long time ago but dont remember details.

One thing worth noting is just how "radical" Jesus was. For example, having a large following of women and, in particular teaching women as disciples. No Rabbi would have done this. His talking with the Samaritan woman at the well would have been utterly outrageous - and the apostles didnt dare say anything. Jesus also viewed children differently. So being unmarried might have been just another broken taboo. Besides, I think most people were more interested in the miracles.

If I come across anything specific I will post again.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Mairtin
Wednesday, 21. April 2010, 10:32
As far as I know, James, the Gospels tell us nothing either way about Jesus's marital state and some historians argue that He may well have been married before His public ministry commenced (bear in mind that we know absolutely nothing about His life from the age of twelve to the age of thirty).

There is a tradition in the Catholic Church - probably most Christian churches - that He was never married but I don't know if that is just a popular legend or whether it is based on anything more substantive; I don't think, for example, that any of the Church Fathers ever commented on His marital state.
Mairtin,

I think its more than tradition, I think it is Tradition. The Gospels talk about brothers and sisters, about Mother but not about wife. I think becuase there was not one. It seems logical to me that the second person of the Trinity would not take a human wife.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Wednesday, 21. April 2010, 11:22.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

James,

I found something more specific:

Quote:
 
Members of the ascetic Jewish sect of the Essenes were known for their emphasis on celibacy (Josephus, Antiquities 18.1.5.21; Jewish War 2.8.2.121-122; Philo, Hypothetica 11.14-18).


http://www.leaderu.com/theology/wasjesusmarried.html

There was a practice of remaining single for God already present in Judaism (actually this is often sited as evidence for mary's virginity). So if the Jewish community accepted singless for dedication to God then they would have recognised this in Jesus.

By the way - it seems that the Essenes are the Jewish sect closest to Jesus' approach. There is some indication that the "problem" over which day the Last Supper was celebrated can be solved if Jesus celebrated the passover as calculated by the Essenes. Also, there is much speculation that John the Baptist came from the essene community.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Oh !

A final thought from me:

Jesus is not married - yet

:grin:

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Wednesday, 21. April 2010, 12:10.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Mairtin
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Gerard
Wednesday, 21. April 2010, 11:00
There was a practice of remaining single for God already present in Judaism (actually this is often sited as evidence for mary's virginity).
Which makes it even stranger that the gospels make quite a fuss about Mary's virginity but don't refer at all to Jesus's celibacy.

Also, Jesus didn't say anything about people not getting married, He only talked about people leaving wife and parents to follow Him.
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Mairtin
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FWIW, like Gerry, I think it was unlikely that He was married, just too many complications arising from that especially if He had kids!

At the same time, there's something in me that thinks that if He wanted to be fully human then marriage would have made a good contribution to that, a few years listening to a nagging wife could have been a good exposure to real life as a man :stirthepot:

Mind you, from what I hear, Jewish mothers give all the equivalent of a nagging wife plus a bit more :rofl:
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Gerard

PJD
Saturday, 17. April 2010, 20:06
"Some where in this posting it is said that Kung and Lefebre were holy men; great!"

Only God is Holy Tom.

PJD


PJD,

I agree with your statement here and was wondering, in view of this, how you feel about the title "Holy Father" for the Bishop of Rome?

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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