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| Hans Kung's Open Letter | |
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| Topic Started: Saturday, 17. April 2010, 00:19 (4,289 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 17:16 Post #31 |
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Clare you quoted from my post, a little bit here and a little bit there. I do not have the time to go through your posting bit by bit. My point is, that most persons I know who belong to non Catholic religious denominations yearn for us all to be ONE. We should bear in mind that educational and intellectual levels vary, that is why I said
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 17:16 Post #32 |
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YES PLEASE! |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| tomais | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 19:45 Post #33 |
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Some where in this posting it is said that Kung and Lefebre were holy men; great! Wau up there atop the Church's greasy pole sounding off etc etc. AND-and where does that leave the 99.999% of Believers? The Church of Scotland structure may be far from perfect-but! Once a year in Edinburgh the members if they can come on down and speak their minds and souls; you-or indeed many of them may not agree with what is proposed and is said -but. The Holy peopel are- listening or reading aloud? YOU / US ! Traped in structures and vetinarlily treated to whimpers and whispers. This week on the telly I saw lots,lots lots of holy men,( OK few women) in the Ganges.Did you see them and what did you honetly think? Answers on a ket board please with the soft panel on ie piano! Yours Tom |
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| PJD | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 20:06 Post #34 |
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"Some where in this posting it is said that Kung and Lefebre were holy men; great!" Only God is Holy Tom. As for replying on Kung - do you really think it worthwhile disecting and disolving only to prove dust is dust. PJD |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 20:12 Post #35 |
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Tom, you hit the nail on the head. Ordination bestows intelligence and knowledge, so the pew warmers who, not being ordained, are as thick as two planks, can carry on as usual, kneeling down, sitting down, standing up and paying up. All the bishops have had the letter. Some will crumple it up, chuck it in the waste paper bin. Some will keep it so they can discuss it with their pals. Nowt to do with us lot. We don't understand a thing. |
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| Gerard | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 20:19 Post #36 |
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A couple of weeks ago I wrote a letter to the Archbishop of Westminster. Got a reply within a few days. We are not totaly without influence. But if you want to have influence you need to do something. Anyone else written yet? Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 20:24 Post #37 |
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Gerry, you are fortunate, you wrote to an Archbishop who has the courtesy to reply. Some of our bishops are "over stretched", too busy to worry about things that matter to laity. |
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| Gerard | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 20:30 Post #38 |
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Rose, He is not my Bishop, He is the senior Bishop in England. Thats why I wrote to him. I think it helps if he knows what we think and the more who tell him the better. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 20:38 Post #39 |
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Thanks Gerry, I will bear that in mind. I know the Archbishop of Westminster has no authority over the other bishops but he must have a lot of influence. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| pete | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 21:37 Post #40 |
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I e-mailed my PP the article on Hans Kung’s open letter. He has just replied telling me to stay clear of him. |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 23:08 Post #41 |
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Since almost no-one seems to have any intention or desire to discuss the content of the letter, there seems no point in retaining this thread. |
| "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer | |
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| saundthorp | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 23:30 Post #42 |
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OK lets get back to Kung's open letter. Like Clare I don't know where to start so much of it just plainly wrong. I will limit myself to some of the more glaring errors
These so called "accusations" have been torn to shreds, not only by Catholic historians but Jewish ones as well. The accusation that Pope Pius XII didn't offer protection to the Jews is utterly false. In fact he was instrumental in saving the lives of thousands of Jews. Pope Pius XII was one of Nazi Germany’s strongest critics On April 28, 1935, four years before the War even started, the future pope, Cardinal Pacelli, gave a speech that aroused the attention of the world press. Speaking to an audience of 250,000 pilgrims in Lourdes, France, the future Pius XII stated that the Nazis "are in reality only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new tinsel. It does not make any difference whether they flock to the banners of social revolution, whether they are guided by a false concept of the world and of life, or whether they are possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult." It was talks like this, in addition to private remarks and numerous notes of protest that Cardinal Pacelli sent to Berlin in his capacity as Vatican Secretary of State, that earned him a reputation as an enemy of the Nazi party. Dr. Joseph Lichten, a Polish Jew who served as a diplomat and later an official of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith, writes: "Pacelli had obviously established his position clearly, for the Fascist governments of both Italy and Germany spoke out vigorously against the possibility of his election to succeed Pius XI in March of 1939, though the cardinal secretary of state had served as papal nuncio in Germany from 1917 to 1929. The day after his election, the Berlin Morgenpost said: ‘The election of Cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favour in Germany because he was always opposed to Nazism and practically determined the policies of the Vatican under his predecessor.’ Some of the best evidence that refutes the lies put about by enemies of the Church come from the Jews themselves. "In his memoirs, the then Chief Rabbi Zolli of Rome writes that he was sent to the Vatican, where arrangements had already been made to receive him as an ‘engineer’ called to survey a construction problem so that the Gestapo on watch at the Vatican would not bar his entry. He was met by the Vatican treasurer and secretary of state, who told him that the Holy Father himself had given orders for the deficit to be filled with gold vessels taken from the Treasury." Rabbi Lapide records that "in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute." The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, also made a statement of thanks: "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honour to Catholicism." After the war, Zolli became a Catholic and, to honour the Pope for what he had done for the Jews and the role he had played in Zolli’s conversion, took the name "Eugenio"—the Pope’s given name—as his own baptismal name. Zolli stressed that his conversion was for theological reasons, which was certainly true, but the fact that the Pope had worked so hard on behalf of the Jews no doubt played a role in inspiring him to look at the truths of Christianity. When Pope Pius XII died many leading Jews spoke warmly about him and the Catholic Church. Golda Meir the future prime minister of Israel said, "We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. . . . During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims" Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress "With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history” Perhaps, what one of the best know Jews of all time, Albert Einstein said, at the death of Pius XII says it all, "Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty”
Kung has obviously never bothered to read the 39 Articles, particularly these three,
If Kund can expect a rapprochement with Protestant churches who still uphold this type of language, who have never recinded such language, who still ask their newly ordained clergy to recite the 39 Articles, then the man is clearly deranged. Are posters familiar with the reason why Kung was banned from teaching. Kung's views on such traditional doctrine as the divinity of Christ, papal infallibility, and the dogma of the Virgin Mary helped to bring about his censorship by the Vatican in 1979. He was banned from teaching as a Catholic theologian, which provoked international controversy. An agreement of sorts was reached in 1980 that allowed Kung to continue teaching at Tubingen under secular rather than Catholic auspices. Some recent utterences might be of interest. In February 2009 Hans Kung suggested that Barack Obama would be a better pope than Benedict XVI. “The mood in the church is oppressive," Kung told a German magazine. “Benedict is unteachable in matters of birth control and abortion, arrogant and without transparency and restrictive of freedom and human rights." The theologian who once argued for greater democracy in the Church suggested that the Pope should follow Obama's example and issue executive orders to bring about radical changes in Church doctrine and discipline, "using the power of his executive office to issue decrees." In 2005 Kung published a critical article in Italy and Germany on The failures of Pope Wojtyla. Kung argued that the world had expected a period of conversion, reform, and dialogue; but instead politically John Paul II offered a restoration of the pre-Vatican II status quo - thus blocking reform, inter-church dialogue and reasserting the absolute dominion of Rome. He doesn't like popes going to Fatima and preaching there. He thinks the Gospel of Fatima is exaggerated. Edited by saundthorp, Sunday, 18. April 2010, 08:52.
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Truth is still the truth even if no one believes it. Error is still error even if everyone believes it. (Archbishop Fulton Sheen) | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 17. April 2010, 23:45 Post #43 |
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It is glaringly obvious, from the New Testament, that Judaism is the historic root of Christianity. Is Hans Kung putting Judaism on a par with Christianity? Does he think it matters not what religion we follow? Does he want the Pope to say Judaism is another religion of equal status to Christianity? |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 18. April 2010, 08:37 Post #44 |
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Rose, I think you will be surprised at just how close current catholic teaching is to what you suggest. Not exactly equal but actually valid. Will come back to this when I have more time (bet Clare can enlighten us though). Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 18. April 2010, 14:47 Post #45 |
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As promised:
Emboldening mine. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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7:54 PM Jul 11