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Hans Kung's Open Letter
Topic Started: Saturday, 17. April 2010, 00:19 (4,282 Views)
Rose of York
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Pztrick if Hans Kung really did write, as Pope John Paul II lay on his deathbed, that he had become "the symbol of a fraudulent church that has calcified and become senile." I find that pretty offensive. The appearance of the Pope made him appear to be calcified and senile. It seems a bit callous, taking advantage of that to criticise a dying man. It would have been better to publish a calm analysis of what he perceived to be problems with the Pontificate, and to leave it until a period of mourning had passed, after the Pope's death.

Searching to find other items about Hans Kung I found a review of his book My Struggle for Freedom – A Memoirhttp://www.internetlogic.org/ARCC/connorkung.html

He does seem an odd character.
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 01:43
Pztrick if Hans Kung really did write, as Pope John Paul II lay on his deathbed, that he had become "the symbol of a fraudulent church that has calcified and become senile." I find that pretty offensive. The appearance of the Pope made him appear to be calcified and senile. It seems a bit callous, taking advantage of that to criticise a dying man. It would have been better to publish a calm analysis of what he perceived to be problems with the Pontificate, and to leave it until a period of mourning had passed, after the Pope's death.

Searching to find other items about Hans Kung I found a review of his book My Struggle for Freedom – A Memoirhttp://www.internetlogic.org/ARCC/connorkung.html

He does seem an odd character.
Link to original article written by Hans Kung in Der Spiegel, in English:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,348471,00.html

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Gerard

This is from the article above, which was published in 2005:
I consider it prophetic.

Quote:
 
CELIBACY AMONG PRIESTS: By propagating the traditional image of the celibate male priest, Karol Wojtyla bears the principal responsibility for the catastrophic dearth of priests, the collapse of spiritual welfare in many countries, and the many pedophilia scandals the church is no longer able to cover up.

Marriage is still forbidden to men who have agreed to devote their lives to the priesthood. This is only one example of how this pope, like others before him, is ignoring the teachings of the bible and the great Catholic tradition of the first millennium, which did not require office bearers to take a vow of celibacy. If someone, by virtue of his office, is forced to spend his life without a wife and children, there is a great risk that healthy integration of sexuality will fail, which can lead to pedophilic acts, for example.

Consequences: The ranks have been thinned and there is a lack of new blood in the Catholic church. Soon almost two-thirds of parishes, both in German-speaking countries and elsewhere, will be without an ordained pastor and regular celebrations of the Eucharist. It's a deficiency that even the declining influx of priests from other countries (1,400 of Germany's priests are from Poland, India and Africa) and the combining of parishes into "spiritual welfare units," a highly unpopular trend among the faithful, can no longer hide. The number of newly ordained priests in Germany dropped from 366 in 1990 to 161 in 2003, and the average age of active priests today is now above 60.

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Twaddle!

How can
Quote:
 
The ranks have been thinned and there is a lack of new blood in the Catholic church. Soon almost two-thirds of parishes, both in German-speaking countries and elsewhere, will be without an ordained pastor and regular celebrations of the Eucharist.

be
Quote:
 
Consequences

of something that had been going on for centuries without those consequences, rather than consequences of something new that took place in the last 50 years or so?

Gerry,

I do not consider exhorting the Church to conform Herself to the world's standards to be prophetic.
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Angus Toanimo
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Gerard
Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 07:35
This is from the article above, which was published in 2005:
I consider it prophetic.

Quote:
 
CELIBACY AMONG PRIESTS: By propagating the traditional image of the celibate male priest, Karol Wojtyla bears the principal responsibility for the catastrophic dearth of priests, the collapse of spiritual welfare in many countries, and the many pedophilia scandals the church is no longer able to cover up.

Marriage is still forbidden to men who have agreed to devote their lives to the priesthood. This is only one example of how this pope, like others before him, is ignoring the teachings of the bible and the great Catholic tradition of the first millennium, which did not require office bearers to take a vow of celibacy. If someone, by virtue of his office, is forced to spend his life without a wife and children, there is a great risk that healthy integration of sexuality will fail, which can lead to pedophilic acts, for example.

Consequences: The ranks have been thinned and there is a lack of new blood in the Catholic church. Soon almost two-thirds of parishes, both in German-speaking countries and elsewhere, will be without an ordained pastor and regular celebrations of the Eucharist. It's a deficiency that even the declining influx of priests from other countries (1,400 of Germany's priests are from Poland, India and Africa) and the combining of parishes into "spiritual welfare units," a highly unpopular trend among the faithful, can no longer hide. The number of newly ordained priests in Germany dropped from 366 in 1990 to 161 in 2003, and the average age of active priests today is now above 60.

It's part of the whole vitriolic attack on the Church and your beloved John Paul the Great. Kung is a modern day Martin Luther. A heretic. He was one of the periti at VII that plotted the destruction of the Catholic Church. Where Fr Ratzinger saw the error of his thinking, Kung never has.
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Gerard

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Gerry,

I do not consider exhorting the Church to conform Herself to the world's standards to be prophetic.


Clare,

In criticising compulsory celibacy and lobbying for married priests Kung is not conforming to the world but rather, conforming to the Churches own standards. It was the culture for the first millenium and is still the culture in the Orthodox Church. Compulsory celibacy was introduced for worldy reasons - to protect the church's money.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 13:29.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Though you judge him a heretic Patrick the Church has not.
Kung was never excommunicated.
Lefebvre was.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Gerard
Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 13:24
Quote:
 
Gerry,

I do not consider exhorting the Church to conform Herself to the world's standards to be prophetic.


Clare,

In criticising compulsory celibacy and lobbying for married priests Kung is not conforming to the world but rather, conforming to the Churches own standards. It was the culture for the first millenium and is still the culture in the Orthodox Church.
As if that's all that Hans Kung wants!

Abortion, contraception, women priests.

Those are certainly demands that the Church conform to the world.

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Compulsory celibacy was introduced for worldy reasons - to protect the church's money.


Evidence for this assertion, please?
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Clare
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Gerard
Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 13:26
Though you judge him a heretic Patrick the Church has not.
Kung was never excommunicated.
Lefebvre was.

Gerry
Ostensibly, but by the Pope whom Hans Kung decried as "the symbol of a fraudulent church that has calcified and become senile."

As I said, he was wrong about practically everything, but he was right, IMHO, in his assessment of Pope John Paul II's pontificate as "a disaster".

Hans Kung would certainly have been condemned as a heretic and excommunicated in more enlightened times, anyway.
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Angus Toanimo
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Gerard
Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 13:26
Though you judge him a heretic Patrick the Church has not.
I know the Vatican hasn't - yet. But, just because the Pope or the CDF hasn't excommunicated him, it doesn't mean that Holy Mother Church hasn't. Someone who denies the Dogma of Papal Infallibility is a heretic and can be excommunicated latae setentiae.

Quote:
 
Kung was never excommunicated.


See above. It's a possibility.

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Lefebvre was.


Prove it.
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Gerard

O.K.


DECREE OF EXCOMMUNICATION


POPE BENEDICT LIFTS EXCOMMUNICATION OF FOUR BISHOPS

Gerry




Edited by Gerard, Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 19:33.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Gerard
Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 19:04
Yes, and Pope John Paul II declared that women's ordination isn't up for discussion, but that doesn't stop you discussing it, Gerry.

Are those two documents the only papal declarations you accept?
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Angus Toanimo
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I ask you for proof, and you present me with a document from Cardinal Ganitin, confirming a latae setentiae excommunication, followed by a report of the lifting the excommunication? :rofl:

As far as most learned men are concerned, the excommunication never occurred, since +Lefebvre did not ordain bishops without Papal Mandate with a view to giving them a mission, or jurisdiction, and in not doing so, did not set up another Church, therefore the consecrations did NOT constitute a schismatic act but an act of disobedience. An act of disobedience is purely a disciplinary matter.

And in any case, what has the lifting of the alleged excommunications by the Holy Father got to do with Archbishop Lefebvre?

And no response to your man Kung proven a heretic?

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Gerard

Quote:
 
And no response to your man Kung proven a heretic?


See post number 142 above.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Clare
Wednesday, 18. August 2010, 20:14
Yes, and Pope John Paul II declared that women's ordination isn't up for discussion, but that doesn't stop you discussing it, Gerry.
Pope John Paul II may have meant it was not up for discussion as a possible change. We are free people, I think it unlikely any Pope would forbid people to hold conversations on any subject.
Keep the Faith!

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