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Services of Word and Holy Communion; commonly called "Eucharistic Services"
Topic Started: Monday, 23. April 2007, 23:55 (2,636 Views)
Rose of York
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Penfold
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:04
Rose of York
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 12:09
On a slightly related topic, is this permissible:

Lay led Exposition, when it is pre planned in advance that a lay person (who is an Extraordinary Minister) will place the consecrated host in the monstrance and put the monstrance on the altar for adoration. In that person's absence another EMHC will deputise. I feel uneasy about this. It is even announced it will be "led by Anthony".
Code of Canon Law Can. 943
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Can. 943 The minister of exposition of the blessed Sacrament and of the eucharistic blessing is a priest or deacon. In special circumstances the minister of exposition and deposition alone, but without the blessing, is an acolyte, and extraordinary minister of holy communion, or another person deputed by the local Ordinary, in accordance with the regulations of the diocesan Bishop.



Is this a special circumstance:

Priest has one church with two communities, he lives next door to his parish church, the other is eight miles away on the same trunk road (A class) as the presbytery, he goes there once a week to say Mass. Total combined Mass attendance about 100. Good road system, no sick parishioners living on wild inaccessible moorland or on offshore islands. The bishop said rural communities should open their churches for traditional devotions. Two lay people said they want weekly Exposition, they got it.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:24
In many parishes there were once things called, curates. It was the curate’s lot to visit the housebound and distribute Holy Communion to the long term sick in the Parish. The Parish priest might visit the better off end of the parish and may in dire emergency visit the not so well off but on the whole the housebound were fortunate if they saw either of them more than twice a month.
Such behaviour, I would consider unacceptable. Jesus did not restrict his attentions to the better off areas.

In the parish where I grew up, in the town classified, officially, as having the highest percentage of slum dwellings in England, we all knew that the parish priest and his two curates visited the poorer areas, givng devoted service.

In retirement Monsignor Hugh Atkinson of Lincoln, respected by practically everybody in that city, spent his days walking round the back streets and council estates around the church, Monday to Saturday, visiting sick parishioners, in his late eighties. Once a week a parishioner drove him to the better off areas. None were neglected.

Any priest who came to visit me because I live in a detached home in "this exclusive much sought after area with rural views, and easy access to facilities" would be politely requested to send a caring priest.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:57
Penfold
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:24
In many parishes there were once things called, curates. It was the curate’s lot to visit the housebound and distribute Holy Communion to the long term sick in the Parish. The Parish priest might visit the better off end of the parish and may in dire emergency visit the not so well off but on the whole the housebound were fortunate if they saw either of them more than twice a month.
Such behaviour, I would consider unacceptable. Jesus did not restrict his attentions to the better off areas.

In the parish where I grew up, in the town classified, officially, as having the highest percentage of slum dwellings in England, we all knew that the parish priest and his two curates visited the poorer areas, givng devoted service.

In retirement Monsignor Hugh Atkinson of Lincoln, respected by practically everybody in that city, spent his days walking round the back streets and council estates around the church, Monday to Saturday, visiting sick parishioners, in his late eighties. Once a week a parishioner drove him to the better off areas. None were neglected.

Any priest who came to visit me because I live in a detached home in "this exclusive much sought after area with rural views, and easy access to facilities" would be politely requested to send a caring priest.


Rose, again you are equating your experience to the general norms. I am clearly wasting my time again because you have decided, and you are right. I am just a young whipper snapper who has no experience of parish life has never read a book or talked to old priests, including Hugh Atkinson, who told me tales of the good old bad old days.



:nw: :nw: :nw: The Rose of York :wall:
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Rose of York
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Saturday, 27. June 2009, 16:13
As a matter of interest I buried Monsignor Hugh Atkinson of Lincoln he was a retired RAF Chaplain. The point is Rose that again you are equating your experiance to the general norms. I am clearly wasting my time again because you have decided, and you are right. I am just a young wipper snapper who has know experiance of parish life has never read a book or talked to old priest, including Hugh Atkinson who told me tales of the good old bad old days.

:nw: :nw: :nw: The Rose of York
You are a priest, highly trained, there is much that you know that I do not know, and you will have read many more books than I, on spirituality, theology, Church history, Canon Law and other Catholic matters.

Did we both know the same Monsignor Atkinson? The one at Lincoln was definitely parish priest in the early fifties, died in the late eighties. So far as I am aware he went to Lincoln as a curate, never left, became parish priest, vicar General, and in his eighties his curate became parish priest, Monsignor becoming his assistant. Monsignor never mentioned being in the RAF chaplain, though he may have been chaplain to local bases. He was buried from St Hugh's, by Bishop McGuiness, were you one of the concelebrants? A bit off topic, but interesting.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 16:30

Did we both know the same Monsignor Atkinson?
Yes but as you will see I had deleted the reference to the RAF several minutes before you posted. I was confusing him with another Mgr Hugh who was also in Lincoln during his retirement. Mgr Atkinson was known to me when I was in the parish of Rutland as a student for the priesthood and we met at several diocesan events.
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PS yes I was at his funeral but not as a concelebrant but as a late comer in the congregation, I am often late for funerals and hope to be late for my own. :yahoo:

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Mairtin
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Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:24
Where I do see a problem is when EM's get to big for their boots and start trying to dictate to other parishioners.
Is that common?

I ask because I have never actually seen that sort of behaviour and reading the posts here where EMHC's perhaps seem to go beyond their roles, I get the feeling that it's more a case of other parishioners pushing them into it rather then the EMHC's seeking some sort of glory.
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Rose of York
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Since they were introduced I have attended four churches on a regular basis, at different periods.

It happened in two, but I must point out that I experienced it as St X's, not at St Y's, until the priest we had at St X's went there as pp. It was only two of them, and their dictating was nothing to do with being EMHC's, it must have been their nature.

I have known dozens of EMHCs, so knowing only two pushy ones indicates that dozens just did their task, without drawing attention to themselves, and they did not try to dictate in other matters.

It's a bit like saying "I knew two priests who drank too much" and not mentioning the sober priests.
Keep the Faith!

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Mairtin
Sunday, 28. June 2009, 18:12
Penfold
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:24
Where I do see a problem is when EM's get to big for their boots and start trying to dictate to other parishioners.
Is that common?

I ask because I have never actually seen that sort of behaviour and reading the posts here where EMHC's perhaps seem to go beyond their roles, I get the feeling that it's more a case of other parishioners pushing them into it rather then the EMHC's seeking some sort of glory.
I think there is an element of this Mairtin. Most EMs are well intentioned and devout but my point was more a response to the claim that they get to big for their boots rather than an accusation. I do think that EMs are particularly vulnerable to being misunderstood or victims of their own sense of self importance and so should be required to serve for limited terms.
I also, and here I light the blue touch paper, think that priests should have fixed terms of office in Parishes. :tc:

In many religious orders superiors have fixed terms which may be renewed once or in the case of some for half the length of a term (a term being 8 years). I think for parochial appointments 10 years which could be extended to 15 are long enough. It avoids priests becoming idols and getting the notion that they are irreplaceable. The challenge of moving is tough but the opportunity also gives the priest and the parish a chance to renew and refocus.
Bishops are currently obliged to resign at 75 and parish priests are asked to do the same. I think PPs should stand down at 65 and take up assistant or chaplaincy duties, unfortunately in the current state of vocations this is unrealistic and so poor old chaps will be soldiering on for years, some with great effect and with greater conviction than those half their age. Unfortunately there are a great many who, through no fault of their own retreat behind a wall of EMs and green cardigans and being tired and weary after many years of valiant service are forced to continue to accept responsibilities and burdens which are unfair and too heavy to carry and so the parish stagnates and recedes into a stronghold of elderly parishioners with the young ether going elsewhere or just not coming. In parishes with a school there is some incentive for the young to become involved but once the children move on the parents often move on with them.
EMs may get to big for their boots at times but priests also like the feeling of being indispensible and become caretakers of "Their Parish" rather than missionaries for the church of Christ. It is not their fault it is the system we have allowed to evolve and fixed terms would help to keep us all focused and on our toes and I believe that most priests would if not given the choice welcome the opportunity to renew and refocus their vocation.
Ok I shall stand back and see the explosion of posts that may now follow...

:tc: :cannon:
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Rose of York
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Sunday, 28. June 2009, 19:37

Ok I shall stand back and see the explosion of posts that may now follow...

:tc: :cannon:
No explosion from me. If I had the authority I would limit the number of roles any one person carries out in a parish, and not just the liturgical roles. By carrying out multiple roles, those who dominate exclude the others, whom they then accuse of being unwilling to do their share.

Bishops should retire at the age of 65. On objection is that it takes decades of experience to become a bishop, so they tend to be in their fifties when they reach episcopal rank. Funny how a young officer can progress to the most senior positions in any the armed forces young enough to put some service in before retiring at 55, but bishops soldier, or in some cases, dodder on until they can count their life expectancy on the fingers of one hand. Make them retire, send them out to do parish or chaplaincy work.

I dare not suggest bishops retire fully and become Extraordinary Ministers, they would need to be laicised first.


Ok Rose now stands back to await the explosion of posts that may now follow...

:tc: :cannon:
:rofl:

Keep the Faith!

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CARLO
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Penfold

A very sensible and incisive post.

No explosion from me.

:nw:

Pax


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Derekap
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I can only speak from my experience in the parish I was EMHC. Most of the EMsHC were already involved in some of parish activity and I can't recall anyone becoming to big for his/her boots. (Naturally, others might have thought one person was guilty!).
Derekap
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Mairtin
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From today's Sunday Times (Irish edition):

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Shortage of priests forces a new look at Catholic church
Colin Gleeson

Ireland is to see a “new model” of the Catholic church, involving the merging of parishes, more laymen administering religious services and people having to “get used to the fact that not every church will have mass at 10 o’clock every morning”, according to a leading churchman.

Paddy Rushe, the church’s vocational director, has said such changes are necessary in order to cope with the declining number of priests.

He predicted that the practice of priests having to double-job across parishes, and laymen supervising church services, “is going to become widespread”.

The church is also planning to “modernise” its recruitment methods in order to attract more young people to the priesthood, including using social networking sites such as Facebook and Bebo.

The most recent figures for applications to the priesthood are from 2006, when 30 people were accepted for vocation. There were 27 in 2005. There are currently 2,536 priests in Ireland, 142 fewer than in 2007.

Rushe said the present set-up, with several parishes operating in some areas, is unsustainable. Towns such as Dundalk, “where there are eight churches within two square miles of each other”, will have to get used to meeting at a central location.

“People in communities like Dundalk need to come together and see what they can provide with the number of priests that they have,” he said. “Then they have to look at having services that laymen can administer.”

Last week a row broke out in the Ardfinnan parish in Co Tipperary when Ken Hackett, a sacristan, conducted a service without the presence of the priest, who was on holiday. Several angry parishioners left the church in protest.

Rushe admitted that changes need to happen slowly so people do not feel “swept aside”. He said: “I believe there are enough priests coming forward to cater for a new model, whereby in 10 years the parishes that don’t have a priest might be merged together to form a new parish.”
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Rose of York
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I had a phone call from a friend whose parish priest is off sick. He has two churches, each being covered temporarily by another priest (a different priest for each one). In the one that has a Saturday vigil, an active parishioner received a phone call. Due to circumstances beyond his control he could not get there to say Saturday Vigil Mass, due to an unexpected emergency. On the Sunday he has three Masses to say in three other locations. A lay person led a service of Word and Holy Communion. This was in a chapel of ease that had Mass the previous weekend and expects to have one next weekend. No other priest was avaible. An Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion led a service of Word and Holy Communion for the people who had turned up expecting Mass. What is the correct procedure in such circumstances, bearing in mind they had Mass last week, and expect to have one next week? Most of the parishioners would be able to get to Mass elsewhere on the Sunday, and could have offered lifts. A few cannot travel far and some have to work on some Sundays, nursing, care homes and so on.
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Anne-Marie

Rose of York
Monday, 22. March 2010, 01:40
I had a phone call from a friend.
What is the correct procedure?
No idea what the rule-book says, Rose... but we have been told here before that we have an obligation to attend Mass on the Sabbath.

* Firstly it would seem appropriate to explain to those attending expecting Mass that unless they have good reason, they should attend Mass elsewhere on the Sunday, unless that is impossible;

* Secondly, as Christians, they should consider themselves duty-bound to assist others by giving lifts when they go on the Sunday;

* Thirdly, if they really give a stuff about God, why would they want an excuse to NOT share His Mass with Him?
After all, if you love a person and a meet-up goes wrong, don't you long to find a way of being with that person just as soon as possible? So why would you care less about God, if you claim to love Him???

* Fourthly, given those people have bothered to turn up and some may not be able to attend a Mass elsewhere on the Sunday, you could hold a Service of Word and Holy Communion, or even the Mass of the day sans Consecration.
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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