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Services of Word and Holy Communion; commonly called "Eucharistic Services"
Topic Started: Monday, 23. April 2007, 23:55 (2,637 Views)
Fortunatus

Quote:
 
It must be lamented that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reform, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many...
I consider it my duty, therefore to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity ... I have asked the competent offices of the Roman Curia to prepare a more specific document, including prescriptions of a juridical nature, on this very important subject. No one is permitted to undervalue the mystery entrusted to our hands: it is too great for anyone to feel free to treat it lightly and with disregard for its sacredness and its universality.
Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia (2003).
The "specific document" referred to is Redemptionis Sacramentum.
Rather than go into further lengthy quotes, can I suggest
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20IV
with particular reference to paras 162 et seq which seem to me to explain Pope John Paul's intention as expressed above.
Whether this explanation satisfies those who see Holy Communion "on demand" as the epitome of Catholic life is another matter.
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Derekap
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I have carefully read paragraphs 162/3/4/5 and 6 and to me they do not answer my questions nor help to clarify my confusion.

For what purpose was the Liturgy of the Word and Distribution of Holy Communion instituted if it is to be very reluctantly and very exceptionally permitted in place of the inavailability of Holy Mass on Saturday Evenings and Sundays and virtually forbidden on Weekdays? I particularly noticed the very glib suggestion that people attend Holy Mass in another church. This may be alright in Rome where there are plenty of churches and a reasonable transport system and London even, although there may be fewer churches but in regions where there are smaller towns, some with a Catholic church, and public transport is much less frequent or available the situation is very different. And, no doubt, the writers have cars and maybe chauffeur-driven cars. Interpreters of these paragraphs must bear these factors in mind.


(Although one sees plenty of buses in the central area of Greater London the routes get less frequent the further one leaves the central area)
Edited by Derekap, Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:27.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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Derek, the document offers the suggestion of the faithful transferring to another church as one of several alternative solutions.

Regarding people wanting Holy Communion during the week, outside the celebration of Mass, in disobedience to the Holy See, I can no longer hold back from asking, does it kill anybody's soul not to receive Holy Communion every single day? Nobody is likely to deny them the opportunity to gather for prayer.

Rome has spoken.

The Church of England is falling apart because there is no consistency in belief and practises. We are in danger of going down that route.

We need to respect and accept the authority of persons appointed by the Holy Father, to make liturgical decisions.

Some parish priests set an example of disobedience. Do they in turn expect disobedience from their parishioners?


Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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For the past fifteen years or so I have had no opportunity to regularly attend Mass mid week. My faith is undiminished and I do not believe that God will give me less of his help than he gives other people who have more free time, and more choice of churches and Mass times.

Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are commissioned to assist when strictly necessary.
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus

I'm sorry, Derek, but I find it quite clear. Services of the Word are to be used with the permission of the bishop as an emergency measure where there are no priests available. We are talking primarily about parts of the world where parishes are bigger than the whole of the UK!
Your argument about transport is fallacious and someone of your vintage ought to know better. In rural parts of England there have always been outlying villages that were either served from another parish or where residents needed to make their own way to the nearest town when a lot fewer of them had cars than have today and the transport system on a Sunday morning was often as woeful as it is now.
And we didn't have the option of a Saturday evening Mass when the chances of getting a bus home might have been marginally better.
And we managed somehow without Services of the Word.
But the conditions which the Vatican has applied are that such Services are permitted — with the consent of the bishop — where there was no Mass the previous Sunday and there will not be one the coming Sunday either.
John Paul's stated intention in Ecclesia de Eucharistica was to put a stop to what he saw as abuses and the devaluation of the Eucharist. The "Communion on demand" attitude was one of the abuses he identified; the detachment of Communion from the celebration of the Mass was to be avoided wherever possible.
Which is why Redemptionis Sacramentum called for an end to Services of the Word and Holy Communion just because the parish priest was having a day off or had gone on a couple of days retreat or was attending some deanery wingding.
As Rose has pointed out on more than one occasion (and Redemptionis Sacramentum backs her to the hilt) there are a lot of other ways of adoring the Blessed Sacrament that don't involve mini-priests holding mini-Masses because they can and the local Ordinary hasn't the wit to tell them where to get off.
And that's before you start on the Rosary or the Liturgy of the Hours or any of the other devotions that seem to have become passé in recent years largely, I suspect, because the resident OGC doesn't get to do her thing in full view of the adoring masses.

I see you nipped in ahead of me, Rose. I think what you say pretty well accords with what I said.
What happened to the normal Catholic "default" position which was that what the Church (ie the Pope and the Vatican) decided was the way things were to be?
Edited by Fortunatus, Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:55.
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Rose of York
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Fortunatus
Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:49
As Rose has pointed out on more than one occasion (and Redemptionis Sacramentum backs her to the hilt) there are a lot of other ways of adoring the Blessed Sacrament that don't involve mini-priests holding mini-Masses because they can and the local Ordinary hasn't the wit to tell them where to get off.
And that's before you start on the Rosary or the Liturgy of the Hours or any of the other devotions that seem to have become passé in recent years largely, I suspect, because the resident OGC doesn't get to do her thing in full view of the adoring masses.
We parishioners received individual copies of a document stating that from a certain date, regular devotions would be encouraged in churches that had no resident priest.

A man turned to me and said "I see the Eucharistic Ministers are being asked to lead Stations and Rosary" to which I replied "there is nothing there to say who will lead them, it says lay led. I take it that any parishioner can lead them." The man said it was obvious it would be the "Eucharistic Ministers" because that is what they are there for.

Illicity held Services of Word and Holy Communion have led to the mistaken beleif that Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are commissioned to lead the "others" in all matters spiritual. Much as I respect the Methodists (whose lay preachers lead Sunday Services) I am not a Methodist, I am a Catholic, subject to the authority of the Pope.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Fortunatus
Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:49
What happened to the normal Catholic "default" position which was that what the Church (ie the Pope and the Vatican) decided was the way things were to be?
"Society" changed, wanted freedom for people to do their own thing. My generation, the war babies, decided to get with it, in church, and do things the way they wanted to do them. If we don't like the rules, we decide for ourselves they are wrong, stupid, nonsensical, unreasonable, should never have been laid down.

Plain unadulterated selfish disobedience, but we laity do not make vows of obedience, do we?
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus

Humph! I was taught that in some respects I was the equal of any man but that there were those who for good reason were placed in charge. If I behaved myself and ate my cabbage one day I might become one of them and in a small and very local way I eventually did. But the Papacy never figured in my ambitions so I am happy to leave it to him to tell me what is right and wrong.
We are all men (except for the women) "subject to authority".

As far the EXTRAORDINARY MINISTERS OF HOLY COMMUNION (forgive me, but if you don't say it very loudly people get it wrong even especially priests and bishops and EMs) they are in desperate need of being taken down a peg or three and a bit of positive catechesis on the subject of exactly what they are for, as distinct from what they like to think they are for, is l-o-n-g overdue!

Should we be looking to go back on topic, do you think? :bl:
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Rose of York
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Fortunatus
Friday, 26. June 2009, 22:42
Should we be looking to go back on topic, do you think? :bl:
The two topics of EMHCs and Services of Word and Holy Communion are very closely linked. Without the former, you can't have the latter.
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus

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The two topics of EMHCs and Services of Word and Holy Communion are very closely linked. Without the former, you can't have the latter.

And without the latter, you don't need the former. :rofl:
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Rose of York
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Fortunatus
Friday, 26. June 2009, 22:52
Quote:
 
The two topics of EMHCs and Services of Word and Holy Communion are very closely linked. Without the former, you can't have the latter.

And without the latter, you don't need the former. :rofl:
Thy are needed, for Holy Communion and associated prayers when one is too ill to get to Mass.

Is the brief service at home the same as the one held in churches? I had Communion at home for a few weeks, thirty years ago. I think it was a very brief service, just a few minutes.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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On a slightly related topic, is this permissible:

Lay led Exposition, when it is pre planned in advance that a lay person (who is an Extraordinary Minister) will place the consecrated host in the monstrance and put the monstrance on the altar for adoration. In that person's absence another EMHC will deputise. I feel uneasy about this. It is even announced it will be "led by Anthony".
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus

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Thy are needed, for Holy Communion and associated prayers when one is too ill to get to Mass.
I take your point but I don't actually agree with you. We have a rota for EMs to take Communion to the sick. Since there are never more than three on any one day according to the current list I have to ask what our parish priest is up to.
What has happened is that the creation of EMs has given priests the opportunity to back away from one of their prime responsibilities (IMHO) of visiting the sick. And what happens if an EM turns up with Communion and the recipient feels obliged in a state of considerable embarrassment to refuse for whatever reason? I agree that the housebound might be considered less likely than the average to get themsleves into a state of mortal sin (though why one should make that assumption I am not sure) but what if they feel the need to go to Confession anyway? The Church tells us that the two sacraments are linked; surely the one function the priest should not be delegating is his care for the spiritual well-being of the sick unless he absolutely has to.
And "I've got a baptism immediately after Mass" is not a good enough reason, though I have heard it.
The need for EMs in some parts of the world (and perhaps even in some parts of the UK though probably only a very small percentage of those that actually have them) has provided those who appear not to understand the difference between the ordained priesthood and the universal priesthood with the perfect opportunity to blur the distinction between the two.
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Rose of York
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 12:09
On a slightly related topic, is this permissible:

Lay led Exposition, when it is pre planned in advance that a lay person (who is an Extraordinary Minister) will place the consecrated host in the monstrance and put the monstrance on the altar for adoration. In that person's absence another EMHC will deputise. I feel uneasy about this. It is even announced it will be "led by Anthony".
Code of Canon Law Can. 943
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When properly trained and commissioned by the Bishop I have to say Eucharistic ministers do a great job in visiting the sick. It is not an excuse for the priest to abrogate his responsibilities. In many parishes there were once things called, curates. It was the curate’s lot to visit the housebound and distribute Holy Communion to the long term sick in the Parish. The Parish priest might visit the better off end of the parish and may in dire emergency visit the not so well off but on the whole the housebound were fortunate if they saw either of them more than twice a month. Since the demise of curates the EMs have stepped into the breach and many housebound now receive communion at least once a week with a monthly visit from the priest unless he is invited, usually by the EM to make and extra visit in time of need.

I also know from talking to many housebound that they have become very fond of 'their EM' who often has the time to chat and have a cup of tea that the curate with half a dozen more people to see did not. Also the EMs are often closer in age to the people they are visiting and the conversation can be more relaxed and social rather than polite and business like.


Where I do see a problem is when EM's get to big for their boots and start trying to dictate to other parishioners. The solution is simple when they are next due for renewal the priest should not put their name forward. As a general rule I do not think EM's should serve for more than 6 consecutive years and should take a minimum of 2 years between each appointment, this would help offset the 'Top Dog' tendency. As in all things discretion should be permitted, after all if you do have a saintly EM who is loved and respected by all they should be allowed to carry on the good work. I also think that by having a limit on the term of appointments it encourages others to come forward because they do not have to break into a select club or worry that they will be tied to a never ending commitment.
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