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| Services of Word and Holy Communion; commonly called "Eucharistic Services" | |
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| Topic Started: Monday, 23. April 2007, 23:55 (2,638 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Friday, 18. May 2007, 01:12 Post #91 |
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I have just read the whole thread. Opinions are expressed, as to whether or not these services should take place, but I did not read one eye witness account of any service not conducted reverently. The reports of guidelines being breached include my own contribution about Communion Services, in a church that had weekly Sunday Mass, in contravention of strict instructions from the bishop, who soon put a stop to them when he was alerted. I wrote nothing about breach of guidelines about the manner in which the services should be conducted. Did anyone write about such problems? We need a volunteer to travel around and report back, on Communion Services in a few churches. Some would do their utmost to find something wrong. |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 1. July 2007, 23:06 Post #92 |
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Do any members have any information about a document issued by at least one bishop of England and Wales, regarding rules to be followed about the circumstances in which Services of the Word may be legitimately held? I have been provided with a scanned document, I can copy it on here but that would mean typing it manually. I would like to know if anyone has seen it on any parish or diocesan sites, and whether it was issued nationwide. The document is entitled SERVICES OF WORD AND HOLY COMMUNION - A DIOCESAN POLICY It is not signed, but was issued to all parishes in Diocese of Plymouth. If it is on any parish websites I would appreciate the url link. |
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| PJD | Monday, 22. June 2009, 21:38 Post #93 |
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"My choice for chapels of ease without a resident priest would be for any parishioner to be free to volunteer to have their names on a rota" I would especially second that in relation to the Eucharist. Even without Mass it is still far more important to my mind to receive the Lord. But a rota is essential and all volunteers should be given their spot so to speak. No favourites - that spoils concentration on devotion. PJD |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 22. June 2009, 22:38 Post #94 |
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PJD do I understand you correctly? Do you suggest that receiving Holy Communion, outside of the Mass, is far more important than having other devotions? If we obey our bishop and the Holy See, that is out of the question. If we are to take everything from the clergy apart from saying Mass, preaching and hearing confessions, why not just dispense with most of them, have a small number trawling around the deanery on Sundays, saying Mass here, there and everywhere in all the rural towns? We could even tell them to get well paid jobs, to save us the trouble of supporting them. During the week, we could run the show. The idea is unthinkable. Believe me there is a danger that we are heading that way. |
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| Deleted User | Monday, 22. June 2009, 23:04 Post #95 |
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The priest administering the sacraments and the parishioners administering the parish sounds eminently sensible to me, providing the parishioners be properly trained. It is a question worth considering, are people demanding Eucharistic services because they are hungry or because they are gready? The seperation of the Eucharist from the mass should be the exception, in extrordinary circumstances, not the norm. |
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| PJD | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 08:32 Post #96 |
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"PJD do I understand you correctly? Do you suggest that receiving Holy Communion, outside of the Mass, is far more important than having other devotions?" Yes I do Rose. It is not a matter of using the expression 'important' - it is simply that the 'Eucharist-Factor' (I hope Our Blessed Lord doesn't mind my using that phrase) is of a higher order. PJD |
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| PJD | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 08:44 Post #97 |
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Sorry to be awkward Penfold but..... "The seperation of the Eucharist from the mass should be the exception, in extrordinary circumstances, not the norm." Considering the shortage of priests, and the history of having plenty of priests in this England of ours - are we living in normal times? "are people demanding Eucharistic services .....?" Are they demanding - not in my opinion. Are they even insisting - still not in my opinion. But should they voice their concerns more - yes in my opinion. To receive the Lord of Glory - should more emphasis be placed on that wonderous gift - yes in my opinion. PJD |
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| Deleted User | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 09:16 Post #98 |
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The Above quotes taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church Eucharistic services are a poor imitation of the Mass and should only be used in exceptional circumstances, this is the teaching of the Pope and the Bishops, http://www.zenit.org/article-26151?l=english As for what constitutes extrodinary circumstances, well that is a good topic for debate, PJD. I would say that simply filling in while the parish priest is on holiday does not constitute a good reason. filling in whil the priest is taken ill unexpectedly that is more acceptable. In England we are required to travel to mass and for rural areas the distance and meens of transport may make the assesment of , extrodinary circumstances differ from the urban parish. What I think is at the heart of things for me though is a concern that other forms of devotion are being cast aside for the eucharistic service and I do not think that the eucheristic service is always as appropriate or as justified as people claim. People are to ready to argue that as PJD has done that it is
is not accurate, the Eucharist Factor is the mass and reception of Holy Communion outside the mass should be reserved for special, extraordinary occations. I am also concerned that people are not remembering that the recepion of Holy Communion is dependant upon the state of our souls and if there is no priest to say the mass who is hearing your confession. However the topic of the thread is Lay led liturgies and devotions and my opinion is that the layety can and should revive some of the non-eucharistic devotions along the lines sugested by Rose and not default to a Eucharistic Service. |
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| Ned | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 15:53 Post #99 |
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Yes, absolutely, Penfold. I agree with you there. The awkward bit is to make sure that the laypeople given responsibilities within the parish do measure up to some objective standard of being the right sort - rather than just being members of the same clique that already runs the parish. It would help if there were parish-registers, properly updated once every two or three years. |
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| PJD | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 20:53 Post #100 |
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"What I think is at the heart of things for me though is a concern that other forms of devotion are being cast aside for the eucharistic service and I do not think that the eucharistic service is always as appropriate or as justified as people claim. People are to ready to argue that as PJD has done that it is" I was not arguing that exactly; but referring to weekdays and distinct from weekend obligation. My Fransciscan friend and I discussed this at the cafe today. He is very traditionalist and backed up what Penfold was saying 100%. That sort of thing (minor differences) is usual for us. Where I am, very rarely and as an exception as Penfold mentioned, when the priest was absent for a weekday Mass we have had a Eucharist Service - but strictly speaking it is against the rules. In the end, so as not to be entirely beaten, I expressed the opinion that there was no difference between a Eucharist Service conducted for a sick, distant, or elderly person at home than one conducted at the Church. So there...... but he still agreed on Penfold's principle. We left it at that with a laugh and then continued to talk about what was the best bet going for the day at Ladbrooks. PJD |
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| draig | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 21:53 Post #101 |
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Why should it just be lay people that are subject to objective standards? Just what are the objective standards (if any) being applied to the current running of parishes by our PPs? What would happen to the CEO of a company presiding over dramatic and sustained decline in sales? Or the regional managers of that company? "Ah, there's a difference!" I hear you cry. Yes there is a difference, a company is expected to succeed and must report to shareholders, explaining what they propose to do if they are experiencing problems, but a parish operates in the dark - at least as far as most people are concerned. Companies must report to shareholders, who can ask questions, at AGMs. Shareholders can even force an EGM. Yet parishoners have no right to receive a report from their CEO and no right to question the CEO. We are providing a product with no concern for feedback from our market or from our shareholders. That is the economic model that failed the USSR, leading to its collapse. Without change our Church is similarly going to fail the parable of the talents! |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 22:09 Post #102 |
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Strictly speaking? It is against the rules, no strictly about it.
The difference is, one is for people who have no opportunity to attend a weekly Mass, the other is unnecessarily made available to people who can spare the time to get to the church mid week. I am now concerned that this thread could turn into a marathon about Services of Word and Holy Communion, my aim is, mainly, to discuss the dearth of other forms of public prayer. Don't the priests who permit this sort of thing to go on understand they are denying their people the opportunity to savour the riches of Catholic spirituality? |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 22:20 Post #103 |
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The difference between our parishes and dioceses, and major companies is, that the board of directors of a company enforce compliance with company policy. Our system is, parish priest responsible to the bishop, who is responsible only to the Pope. If he wants to enforce policy he does, if he doesn't want to, he doesn't. A company assesses the % of market share it has the potential to achieve. When turnover drops the managing director asks questions. Customers who switch suppliers are not held blameworthy or apathetic. When Mass attendance drops the blame is laid at society, parents, materialism, anything except those who are charged with responsibility for our spiritual welfare and nourishment. I may have hit on something, our spirituality has been diluted since evening Masses were introduced. Rosary, Stations, litanies, divine office are uniquely Catholic. Steak is better than sausage, we don't all give up sausage. |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 17:35 Post #104 |
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I am confused. Presumably the Liturgy of the Word and Distribution of Holy Communion (formerly known as The Eucharistic Service) was instituted after Vatican 2 to be held when and/or where a priest was not available to offer Holy Mass. Now we are told it must not be held on Sundays or other Holydays of Obligation because people might think it is a Holy Mass or as good as. Nor must it be held on weekdays because there is no need of it. So when can it be held? Are there any paragraphs headed by four digits or other documentation which refer to it - as opposed to Bishops' rulings or opinions or lay people's opinions? In pre V2 days there were ocasions when a priest distributed Holy Communion outside Holy Mass. Not expecting to relate such occasions years later I naturally did not make any notes. I think where a priest usually offered a Holy Mass about breakfast time but was faced with the necessity of providing a Requiem Holy Mass later then he might have just distributed Holy Communion at the regular time. But I'm sure such a facility was sometimes announced during Holy Mass on Sundays and not just for that reason. Certainly whilst there were some (very very few) prayers and a Blessing (in Latin of course) there were no Readings from the Bible. Edited by Derekap, Thursday, 25. June 2009, 17:36.
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 22:57 Post #105 |
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The point is, did the Vatican introduce the service strictly for situations in which a Sunday Mass was out of the question, or for weekdays? When were they introduced? My first knowledge of them was in the early eighties, years after Vatican 2. |
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7:53 PM Jul 11