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Services of Word and Holy Communion; commonly called "Eucharistic Services"
Topic Started: Monday, 23. April 2007, 23:55 (2,640 Views)
Rose of York
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Joseph
May 5 2007, 10:48 PM
In parishes where Sunday Communion services have been permitted, those able to get to a church where Holy Mass is available are still required to attend that Mass.

Has that happened in churches in Britain?

I understand that if a Bishop feels he has no prospect of having regular Sunday Mass offered in all church buildings in a geographical area, he closes one down, being careful to select a church where there is another within reasonable travelling distance. That happened to a church a few miles from ours.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Joseph
May 3 2007, 11:37 PM
Quote:
 

Mass and Communion Service: What's the Difference?
by Thomas Richstatter, O.F.M. americancatholic.org

.. there are over 2,000 parishes here in the United States that currently have no priest at all. In many of these parishes, on days when a priest cannot be present to celebrate the Eucharist, a Communion service is held instead.


The whole thing boils down to disobedience of instructions from the Vatican.
Keep the Faith!

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Joseph

Rose of York
May 5 2007, 04:27 PM
Joseph
May 5 2007, 04:16 PM
Rose (Carlo, and other 'old-timers;) - have you managed to read the quoted article yet?

I would very much like to know what you think of the contents.

As Katy commented - some of the analogies are 'rather interesting'.

Link:- http://tinyurl.com/3xtlrs

Joseph I share your concerns. I will be back on this subject, this evening.

I'm looking forward to that Rose.

It is a fairly lengthy read, but it is worth the effort for the unusual views it sheds on Mass and Communion - I feel sure you will find them so. :)

Joseph
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Rose of York
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Joseph
May 6 2007, 11:49 AM
Rose of York
May 5 2007, 04:27 PM


Joseph I share your concerns.  I will be back on this subject, this evening.

I'm looking forward to that Rose.

Joseph I made my observation at 11 pm last night.

So far as I am concerned the only things worth saying are:

It may be that these services could legitimately be offered in the jungle, the desert, the Arctic, the Antarctic, offshore islands with no priest, theatres of war, or, if consecrated hosts are available, in rare grave emergency in the developed world. In most instances where they are taking place, that is forbidden and Catholics are duty bound to report the matter to their Bishop (which I did, and I was satisfied with the result).

In situations where they take place legitimately, the faithful should be told, this is no substitute for the Holy Mass.

So, what is left to discuss? I can only suggest that if you know of this happening, illicitly, you report the matter to your Bishop and if he fails to take appropriate action, take it further. Would you be willing to do that?
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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" Hmm! I presume you mean the 'sharing a meal' aspect, rather than the Holy Mass itself Derek - it would be hardly possible to give too much importance to that!"

I agree with you Joseph. When responding I overlooked mention of that aspect of his dissertation.
Derekap
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PJD
May 4 2007, 08:52 PM
KatyA

Perhaps when you look at it again you might consider letting us know of any queries you have.

PJD

I was without access to my computer for most of yesterday (and suffering serious withdrawal symptoms) so I haven't had time to return to the article. However, I recall that references to gathering together and sharing a meal reminded me of the appalling "Happy Meal" analogy used in children's catechises a few years ago.
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newminster
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Quote:
 
I know, Rose, that at present by far the majority of churches have a Holy Mass at least on a Saturday Evening, a Sunday Morning or a Sunday Evening. However, this situation looks very much like deteriorating and we must prepare for such.
When this situation does detetiorate to the point where there are insufficient priests to provide a Sunday Mass (by whatever way you define Sunday) in an appropriate number of churches in a diocese (by whatever way you define appropriate) then will be the time to authorise some other form of liturgical celebration.
At the moment we have more than enough bishops doing a poor imitation of Chicken Licken or obeying Robert Heinlein's maxim 'When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout'.
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I managed to find some information, from a person who was authorised, by his bishop, to hold such services in a remote area of a thinly populated country.
Unless I'm very much mistaken, it has already been made clear by the Vatican in several Instructiones, of which my good friend Redemptionis Sacramentum was only one of the most recent, that it was precisely those circumstances for which the dispensation for Communion services was envisaged. What was never envisaged was that they would become something close to the norm in parishes in the western world where parishioners are not being threatened with an inability to carry out their weekly obligation.
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If you have a form of Penitential Rite, Readings (including, why not?, the Gospel). Bidding Prayers, The Lord's Prayer, the distribution of Holy Communion and a few more prayers then the similarity to Holy Mass minus the Offertory and Consecration is inevitable.
Not to mention the Sign of Peace! Of course the similarity is inevitable and as Richstatter points out, or at the very least implies, there are people who actually prefer the Communion service because it's shorter (also you don't have to put up with a homily or as is becoming increasingly common two or three mini-homilies).
So why not just let the priest stroll in every now and again, say a Mass, consecrate a batch of hosts and then just leave us to our own devices? Anyone seriously argue that there is not a danger of our heading down that road?
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For some folk determined to increase 'lay participation' (why?), this is simply unacceptable and they will do their utmost to ignore the official guidance repeated recently by various Bishops in the UK and to support those Parish Priests who also allow the guidance to be ignored.
Coming to the crunch here, Carlo, I think.
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I do believe that the line between Communion Service and Mass is already blurred in many minds - they have "been to Church" and that is sufficient in their view.
Bad catechesis. Of which there is a lot about.
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There is no need for any church to have a Communion Service just because there is no Mass on a weekday.
Keep hammering at this one, Rose. One day we'll win the argument. But when you are starting from the basis that the priest himself almost insists on a 'Service of the Word and Communion' every day that he is out of the parish (except for Saturdays of course) it's an uphill struggle.
There is a divergence of expectation in this subject and I'm not sure where it has come from. Carlo makes the good point about those who are almost obsessed with advancing lay participation. RS makes the point that participation does not have to mean being busy-busy the whole time.
EMHCs, singers, musicians, greeters, passkeepers, cleaners, sacristans, special charities organisers, oh how wonderful that we lay people are all busy participating.
We cannot have Communion Services as a right. We have no obligation to attend Mass daily (much as we may wish or strive to); the bishop has no obligation to provide us with Mass daily (much as he may do his best to). Since Communion is an integral part of the Mass it follows that we have no right to demand and the bishop has no responsibility to provide a sort of 'Mass-lite' in order to satisfy our desires as consumers, because that is what we are making ourselves into in this context.
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CARLO
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Newminster

It is so good to hear from you.

What an excellent posting.

I agree 100%

Te Deum Laudamus
To God be praise


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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newminster
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Kind of you, Monsignor. Actually I thought I went on a bit! :blink:
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Joseph

I think most of us are agreed that weekday Communion services are non-runners, and that Sunday and Holyday Communion services are not yet required in most of our parishes. However, the article this thread relates to http://tinyurl.com/3xtlrs demonstrates the problems that can result from allowing such services to become the norm (which seems to be happening now in the States and may be about to happen here - we’ve already had a week of them in a local parish).

Some of the observations it offers, on both the Mass and Communion services, are to me, worthy of consideration and possible comment.

Here are some examples:-

Quote:
 
1) The Homily - Priesthood involves much more than the "power to consecrate." The first and primary duty of the priest is "to preach the gospel".  The priest speaks not only in the name of Christ (in persona Christi) but also in the name of the Church (in persona ecclesiae). To proclaim the gospel well requires that the pastor live in Christ (that is, be a holy person) and live in the community (that is, know its joys and sorrows, its graces and sins). This is no easy task, but it is at the heart of what it means to be a priest and to preside at the Eucharist.

Ordinarily, a Communion service does not have a homily.

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2) Sacrifice and Sacrament are united at a Mass.  At a Communion service the emphasis is on Sacrament (as a form of nourishment).

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3) The Eucharistic Prayer - (absent in a Communion service) is the key to understanding the Eucharist and thus the key to understanding the difference between Mass and a Communion service.  The Eucharistic Prayer renews the covenant. In the prayer we acknowledge God’s initiative to unite us to himself in the paschal victory of Christ, and at the same time we acknowledge our sinfulness by asking for the Spirit of unity and reconciliation.

God has given us the Eucharist not merely to transform bread and wine, but also to transform lives, to help us to grow into the presence of Christ in our community today, to transform that community into a more inclusive, harmonious, just, compassionate, peaceful, nurturing and Christlike community.

At a Communion service, it is possible that those receiving Holy Communion are more focused on the individual reception of Christ into their hearts than they are focused on this community dimension of the Eucharist. Sharing the Eucharistic meal is much more than a group of individual Christians receiving Holy Communion. Of course, even at Mass, each member of the assembly does not always realize this community dimension of the Eucharist.

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4) How times change! When I was ordained in 1966, laypeople were not allowed to even touch the consecrated host, much less lead a Communion service. Now there are more lay ministers than priests giving Communion. Younger Catholics might not realize how radical this change really is.

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5) The Roman Catechism - issued after the Council of Trent in 1566, which was our official catechism until 1994 - taught that only a priest could administer holy Communion: "...to priests alone has been given power to consecrate and administer to the faithful, the holy Eucharist. That this has been the unvarying practice of the Church, that the faithful should receive the Sacrament from the priests,... this practice, as having proceeded from the Apostolic tradition, is to be religiously retained, particularly as Christ the Lord has left us an illustrious example thereof, having consecrated His own most sacred body, and given it to the Apostles with His own hands."

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6) Core Truths - This quotation from the Catechism of the Council of Trent is cited by the U. S. bishops’ National Advisory Committee on Adult Religious Education as an example of how some details can change without the basic truth changing. "While core truths do not change, the Church is constantly called to a deeper understanding of those truths. The Church faithfully hands on the teachings of the apostles and, at the same time, remains open to the prompting of the Spirit. Sometimes something is taken to be a core truth [e.g. that lay men and women may not distribute the Eucharist] which the Spirit, through time, eventually teaches us is not" (USCC Publication No. 050-8, p. 5). Indeed it can be difficult to know when something is a "core truth" and when it is not.

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7) Concern - Although some parishes seem to be moving smoothly and easily from Eucharist to Communion services as the only solution to the priest shortage, some theologians and Church leaders are warning that something essential is being lost here, especially when a parish cannot celebrate the Eucharist on a Sunday.

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8) Dissatisfaction - One final difference is this: When we leave the Eucharist, we feel joyful, refreshed and strengthened. We should not be surprised if we leave a Communion service (especially on Sunday when no Mass was celebrated in the parish) with some feeling of unrest and dissatisfaction. We are uneasy because we sense that something is not as it should be.

Perhaps this uneasy feeling is a healthy feeling during these changing times. It shows that we have grown in our understanding of what the Mass really is. It is a sign that we must do all we can to keep full celebration of the Eucharist available for everyone.


I think we all agree with that last remark, don't we?

But do we agree on most of the other points listed above?

(Apologies re the length and the highlights, but I think it covers the most interesting aspects of the article.)



Joseph
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Rose of York
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Joseph
May 7 2007, 12:28 AM
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Perhaps this uneasy feeling is a healthy feeling during these changing times. It shows that we have grown in our understanding of what the Mass really is. It is a sign that we must do all we can to keep full celebration of the Eucharist available for everyone.


I think we all agree with that last remark, don't we?

Who says we all agree? I know Catholics who would disgree! I cannot speak for other members of this forum.
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Rose of York
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Quote:
 
6) Core Truths - This quotation from the Catechism of the Council of Trent is cited by the U. S. bishops’ National Advisory Committee on Adult Religious Education as an example of how some details can change without the basic truth changing. "While core truths do not change, the Church is constantly called to a deeper understanding of those truths. The Church faithfully hands on the teachings of the apostles and, at the same time, remains open to the prompting of the Spirit. Sometimes something is taken to be a core truth [e.g. that lay men and women may not distribute the Eucharist] which the Spirit, through time, eventually teaches us is not" (USCC Publication No. 050-8, p. 5). Indeed it can be difficult to know when something is a "core truth" and when it is not.


This is how I interpret the quotation:

Quote:
 
"While core truths do not change, the Church is constantly called to a deeper understanding of those truths. The Church faithfully hands on the teachings of the apostles and, at the same time, remains open to the prompting of the Spirit. Sometimes something is taken to be a core truth [e.g. that lay men and women may not distribute the Eucharist] which the Spirit, through time, eventually teaches us is not" (USCC Publication No. 050-8, p. 5). Indeed it can be difficult to know when something is a "core truth" and when it is not.


What are the current instructions from the Vatican, re laity distributing the Eucharist? The Vatican approves, in certain circumstances. There is no total ban. The Church is open to the promptings of the Spirit. That is one reason why the policy of this forum, is acceptance of liturgical Rites and practices approved by the Vatican.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Joseph
May 7 2007, 12:28 AM
However, the article this thread relates to http://tinyurl.com/3xtlrs demonstrates the problems that can result from allowing such services to become the norm (which seems to be happening now in the States and may be about to happen here - we’ve already had a week of them in a local parish).


Joseph you say a local parish had Communion services for a week! That is forbidden! Are you prepared to report that to your Bishop, and if that does not produce results, to the Apostolic See? Here is my offer:

If you do not want to do it yourself, you may send me a private message, giving the name, address and telephone number of the parish, an email address if you know of one, the name of the parish priest, and the dates and times when those services took or are taking place. Also if the parish has a website, you may give me the url. I am willing to contact your bishop and ask him to make inquiries. If the bishop does not send a satisfactory reply, I will take the matter to the Apostolic See. That will be more effective than making these reports, about an unnamed parish, on a discussion forum.

Redemptoris Sacramentum
 
6.  Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
[183.]  In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

[184.]  Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ's faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.


It is pretty obvious that if you think abuses have occured you have a no choice but to report the matter. Well? What are you going to do about it?
Keep the Faith!

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Deacon Robert
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Let me jump in for a moment. Weekday communion services are NOT the norm in the US. The Bishops of the US have prohibited weekday comunion services and most Dioceses are following the directive. S.C.A.P. ( Sunday comunion in absence of a Priest) are extremely rare in most cities. In places where a single Priest services multiple churches, sometimes 50 to 100 miles apart, they are permitted. Even then the Bishops will not allow, and rightfully so, a comunion service and a Eucharistic service in the same Parish on the same day.

Also IF the leader is a Deacon there will probably be a homily.
The burden of life is from ourselves, its lightness from the grace of Christ and the love of God. - William Bernard Ullanthorne

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Eve
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Joseph
May 3 2007, 10:59 PM


My 'suggestion' implied nothing of the sort "that the laity have a greater involvement than what is the reality" but rather it was an 'observation' that in the form JARay conducts it (and maybe others too) their is little to distinguish them  other than the two major points I outlined. 

I find the similarity rather disturbing!  Even more so in that these services can and are conducted at times not only by 'non-vested' Lay Ministers but by Instituted Acolytes (in countries were they have them - of course) and possibly by vested senior altar servers/EMHCs, and by Permanent Deacons. 



Permanent Deacons are ordained clergy. Instituted Acolytes have wider responsibilities than altar servers. Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are commissioned by bishops. Cardinal Arinze tells us the circumstances in which Communion Services may be held. The wording and actions of the Communion Service are determined by authorised persons.

Eve
Sep 27 2006, 10:13 PM


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