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Services of Word and Holy Communion; commonly called "Eucharistic Services"
Topic Started: Monday, 23. April 2007, 23:55 (2,641 Views)
Joseph

Alan
May 1 2007, 01:26 AM
Joseph
Apr 30 2007, 11:46 PM
The sum total of all this being that, apart from there being no Consecration and no priest, there is little to distinguish them from the Holy Mass - is that not so?

Joseph,

You absolutely astound me with your above comment.

For a service of Word and Communion you require the services of the appropriate Lay members of the Parish.

For the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass you require an Ordained Priest.

A very great difference I believe.

Your suggestion implies that the laity have a greater involvement than what is the reality.

JaRay can answer the query concerning the "Instituted Acolyte" That is not the case in the UK.

Alan - you (in turn) astounded me by your response! :)

My 'suggestion' implied nothing of the sort "that the laity have a greater involvement than what is the reality" but rather it was an 'observation' that in the form JARay conducts it (and maybe others too) their is little to distinguish them other than the two major points I outlined.

I find the similarity rather disturbing! Even more so in that these services can and are conducted at times not only by 'non-vested' Lay Ministers but by Instituted Acolytes (in countries were they have them - of course) and possibly by vested senior altar servers/EMHCs, and by Permanent Deacons.

The directives also state that such services must not be held on weekdays, if Holy Mass is available on Sundays, and that they (even those held on a Sunday) must always be considered as 'Extraordinary' - meaning that they must never become scheduled in any way. These directives seem to be being ignored at times.
Joseph
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CARLO
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Joseph
May 3 2007, 09:59 PM
...................The directives also state that such services must not be held on weekdays, if Holy Mass is available on Sundays, and that they (even those held on a Sunday) must always be considered as 'Extraordinary' - meaning that they must never become scheduled in any way. These directives seem to be being ignored at times.

Joseph

For some folk determined to increase 'lay participation' (why?), this is simply unacceptable and they will do their utmost to ignore the official guidance repeated recently by various Bishops in the UK and to support those Parish Priests who also allow the guidance to be ignored.

A bit like banging your head on a brick wall?

Stand by for the "it's all inevitable argument" !



:angry:

De profundis
Out of the depths


CARLO
Judica me Deus
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Rose of York
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In the parish where I used to go, that had a priest who worked hard at increasing lay involvement and decreasing his own, they got a new parish priest. He changed the lock on the tabernacle.

That fixed 'em. :rofl:

Word reached me, that there were mutters of "What right has HE to alter the way WE do things in OUR parish"?
Keep the Faith!

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Joseph

From the responses in this thread, I feel I failed in my quest to encourage members to read the linked article (quoted in the Root message) and hopefully use it as the basis of our discussion.

I know many of us (including me) are simply put-off by requirements to link-out to read such articles, and even by lengthy articles quoted in full - but occasionally some of them are worth the effort, and I think this may be one of them, since it puts forward interesting and somewhat different views on the subject.

So, I feel it’s not too late to redeem it, and as a taster I have extracted the quotes below. I hope some will find it interesting and worthy of comment.

Quote:
 

Mass and Communion Service: What's the Difference?
by Thomas Richstatter, O.F.M. americancatholic.org

How times change! Fifty years ago, many Catholics went to Mass without receiving Communion. Today, many Catholics receive Communion without going to Mass! They receive at a Communion service.

... there are over 2,000 parishes here in the United States that currently have no priest at all. In many of these parishes, on days when a priest cannot be present to celebrate the Eucharist, a Communion service is held instead.

What is a Communion service? I think our parish is rather typical of what parishes are doing across the country. In our parish, for example, on days when the pastor is absent, the pastoral associate, Sister Jane, leads a Communion service. She calls the assembly together with the Sign of the Cross and a prayer. Then she (or another member of the parish) reads the Scripture passages assigned to the Mass for the day. Sister Jane then says a prayer thanking Christ for the gift of the Eucharist. Everyone recites the Lord’s Prayer. Then Sister distributes Holy Communion with hosts consecrated at a previous Mass and taken from the tabernacle. She concludes the service with a prayer.

Some parishioners call this "Sister Jane’s Mass." For most I believe this is simply a humorous way of naming the service. But for some it might indicate a misunderstanding about the essential differences between Mass and a Communion service. Indeed, they look a lot alike; the elements of both are similar. But is a Communion service simply "Mass without a priest"? To answer yes to this question is to miss several very important differences.

In this Catholic Update we will examine each of the parts of the Mass to see how a Mass is different from a Communion service. Even if your parish does not regularly hold Communion services, this look at the structure and real meaning of the Mass will help you to participate more fully in the Eucharist.

As Communion services become more frequent in parishes, there is the danger that some Catholics might not participate fully in the Eucharist because they go to Mass as if it were simply a Communion service. These Catholics who do not completely understand the Mass go to church (and to Mass) primarily to be alone with God. Greeting others, exchanging a sign of peace and other interpersonal gestures are not an integral part of the experience but rather distractions to their prayer. They receive Holy Communion and treasure the moments of personal intimacy with Jesus. Communal singing at this "private" time is not to their liking. They are content with Communion services—"Sister Jane’s Mass." In fact "Sister Jane’s Mass" in their view can be preferable to "Father’s Mass" because it is shorter.

What makes Mass so much different from a Communion service? Why is it the more ideal form of prayer? To answer this question we will look at each of the parts of the Mass and compare them to the corresponding element of a Communion service...


Link to full article - well worth reading:- http://tinyurl.com/3xtlrs

Any comments?


Joseph
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Timothy
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Quote:
 
For some folk determined to increase 'lay participation'


The Diocese of Westminster seemed in 2004 / 2005 to be very interested in increasing it as well!

Each parish had to nominate a "team" of approximately ten members or so and met with other parishes to discuss ways in which they could cooperate more to reduce to effects of a priest shortage, and how lay people can alleviate the problem for priests.

All well and good, yet when topics such as "communion services run by EMHC" come to fruition from this it gets slightly worrying.
"An adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelty."
"Having a clear faith, according to the credo of the church, is often labelled as fundamentalism."
Pope Benedict XVI
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Joseph
May 3 2007, 11:37 PM


Any comments?

I've only had time to take a quick look at the linked article but it certainly looks worth returning to for a more in depth reading.
I do believe that the line between Communion Service and Mass is already blurred in many minds - they have "been to Church" and that is sufficient in their view. (In fact I was told as much one morning when I expressed surprise that there was a service and not Mass as per the newsletter.) The article seems to emphasise the sacrificial nature of the Mass and to draw attention to the difference and the similarities between the two, although some of the analogies I didn't think quite "fitted". When I have read it more carefully perhaps I can comment further
KatyA
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Derekap
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Can anyone suggest how to make a Holy Communion Service more unlike a Holy Mass in order to avoid any confusion?

Does anyone believe that nothing in place of no Holy Mass on Sundays and other Holydays of Obligation is better than having a Holy Communion Service which may cause confusion?

Derekap
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PJD

KatyA

Perhaps when you look at it again you might consider letting us know of any queries you have.

Carlo

An important point you just made - when referring to Bishops - obedience!

PJD

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Rose of York
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Timothy
May 3 2007, 11:46 PM
Each parish had to nominate a "team" of approximately ten members or so and met with other parishes to discuss ways in which they could cooperate more to reduce to effects of a priest shortage, and how lay people can alleviate the problem for priests.

That is easy. The priest could alleviate the problem, by considering what is rightfully their role, and what is not. They should ask the laity what they are willing to do in their parishes, in terms of offering their secular skills. If a barrister moved house, and introduced himself in his new parish, the chances are he would be invited to carry out liturgical functions, because the parish priest is busy struggling to understand "the never ending nightmare of complying with legislation".

Priests don't clean the church toilet. Why do they do their own newsletters and parish newsletters?
Keep the Faith!

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Joseph

Rose Carlo, and others - have you managed to read the quoted article yet?

I would very much like to know what you think of the contents.

As Katy commented - some of the analogies are 'rather interesting'.

Link:- http://tinyurl.com/3xtlrs
Joseph
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Rose of York
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Joseph
May 5 2007, 04:16 PM
Rose (Carlo, and other 'old-timers;) - have you managed to read the quoted article yet?

I would very much like to know what you think of the contents.

As Katy commented - some of the analogies are 'rather interesting'.

Link:- http://tinyurl.com/3xtlrs

Joseph I share your concerns. I will be back on this subject, this evening.

Meanwhile:

There is no need for any church to have a Communion Service just because there is no Mass on a weekday. I see grave danger of the dimunition of respect for the unique role of the ordained priest, who acts in the person of Christ, at Mass.
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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I am not against a comment that attending (or participating) in Holy Mass is "Sharing a Meal" but Fr Richstatter seems to give it more importance than I think he should.

As I personnally do not confuse Holy Mass and a Holy Communion Service he is of course talking to a convert. Whether he would succeed in giving confused Catholics clarification, I must leave to them.
Derekap
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Joseph

Derekap
May 5 2007, 05:15 PM
I am not against a comment that attending (or participating) in Holy Mass is "Sharing a Meal" but Fr Richstatter seems to give it more importance than I think he should...

Hmm! I presume you mean the 'sharing a meal' aspect, rather than the Holy Mass itself Derek - it would be hardly possible to give too much importance to that!

I agree though, it struck me much in the same way, and had me wondering why he seemed to emphasise 'The Last Supper' aspect over and above the 'Sacrifice on the Cross'? Isn’t that leaning more towards a Protestant view of the Eucharist?


Joseph
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Josephine
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We expect a lot, don't we?

I came upon the last page and because something I thought obvious had not been mentioned I read the whole discussion from the beginning (including the original link bit ).

There have been times when Mass was illegal and "underground" and people still did their best to get there.

More recently, there were few Catholic churches in certain areas and Catholics walked long distances to fullfill their Sunday obligation.

Nowadays many of us have cars, or have friends, fellow parishioners or relatives who have cars.

What about Sunday obligation? I thought we had to attend Mass - not a Communion service on Sunday.

Josephine

P.S. If the grown-ups can't tell the difference between Mass and lay-led Communion service, what hope for the children?..... and my heart sinks - even more than it did the time I went to lay-led Communion service....twice in case I had misunderstood the first time.

To me, much as I love to receive Holy Communion......it doesn't feel right out of context. It is an essential part of the Mass...and Communion service is not a poor substitute - it is no substitute. No offence to those who think otherwise - just my opinion.

O.K. Have got down from my hobby-horse now :)

Comments anyone? :tc:

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Joseph

I agree with you Josephine (and with a name like that, why wouldn't I?) :)

Sunday Obligation still holds - and under pain of Mortal Sin, but how many really accept and follow that these days, even though they still may consider themselves practising Catholics?

In parishes where Sunday Communion services have been permitted, those able to get to a church where Holy Mass is available are still required to attend that Mass. I have often wondered what the reaction would be if, in such circumstances, a well-meaning parishioner used his initiative and organised a coach (or coaches) to the church where Mass was being held - would such action be welcomed?

It could open up that Mass to be within reach of the entire parish, and possibly invalidate the justification for holding a Communion service.


Going back to the Topic - you make a good point, about 'what hope for the children' if adults can be confused. I'm not sure we have yet reached the stage where many of us would mistake one for the other (though we could be heading in that direction if our Lay Ministers are given a free-enough reign). The more imminent danger, as I see it, is that of regarding the Communion service as good enough, and as an effective long-term 'solution' to the shortage of priests.

Joseph
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