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Services of Word and Holy Communion; commonly called "Eucharistic Services"
Topic Started: Monday, 23. April 2007, 23:55 (2,633 Views)
Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Poesy
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 17:06
Clare, I am just wondering about the practicalities of a parish priest getting round visiting the sick to administer the Sacraments, in the event that we were to revert back to pre V2.
They managed before VII. Funny how there's now a priest shortage, so we "need" laymen to do what priests managed to do before. It must be a co-incidence. :wh:

And, even post-VII, only priests can absolve and give the last rites. A lay man cannot hear a sick person's confession and absolve. Still, since VII I guess people have stopped sinning, so it doesn't matter.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 17:27
So what about St Paul saying that women should be silent in church?
What is so difficult to understand about the fact that the Church is the interpreter of Scripture, so it should be obvious that the Church is competent to decide what St Paul meant.

You seem to take an all or nothing view. You believe that either he meant women cannot utter a word, or his words can be completely ignored and women can do everything.

Common sense is how the Church always understood the matter.

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Poesy
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Clare
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 17:46
Poesy
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 17:06
Clare, I am just wondering about the practicalities of a parish priest getting round visiting the sick to administer the Sacraments, in the event that we were to revert back to pre V2.
They managed before VII. Funny how there's now a priest shortage, so we "need" laymen to do what priests managed to do before. It must be a co-incidence. :wh:

And, even post-VII, only priests can absolve and give the last rites. A lay man cannot hear a sick person's confession and absolve. Still, since VII I guess people have stopped sinning, so it doesn't matter.
Clare , I was meaning administering to those of the parish wo are sick, and haven't been able to get to Mass
, I was not talking about visiting the dying or hearing confessions and absolving of sins, of course only a priest must to that. But don't you think it would take the burden off the priest if the lay people could help out by taking the Sacraments to those who are invalid or sick and can't get to Mass, this is what I was getting at. And of course there are still sinners post V2 , that's what the Church is for, 'saving souls'.


Christ commanded us to go out and administer to each other
Edited by Poesy, Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 18:00.
Domine Jesu, noverim me .
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Clare
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Mairtin
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 17:27
Also, who decides where the line falls and on what basis e.g. why is it wrong for women to respond at Low Mass but okay for them to respond at High Mass?
Funnily enough, the Church decides. And, also notice that only the server is supposed to respond at Low Masses. That means that men and women in the congregation do not make the responses.

Women can do what the congregation can do, basically.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Poesy
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 17:53
Clare , I was meaning administering to those of the parish wo are sick, and haven't been able to get to Mass...
Yes, Poesy, that's who I was meaning too. Even they may wish to go to confession, and a priest is required for that.

Quote:
 
... But don't you think it would take the burden off the priest if the lay people could help out by taking the Saraments to those who are invalid or sick and can't get to Mass, this is what I was getting at.


It may take the burden off priests, but that doesn't make it right. This problem has been created. And I do believe that the use of EMHCs is helping to perpetuate the problem.

O Lord, grant us priests
O Lord, grant us holy priests
O Lord, grant us many holy priests
O Lord, grant us many holy religious vocations .

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Poesy
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Clare
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 17:59
Poesy
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 17:53
Clare , I was meaning administering to those of the parish wo are sick, and haven't been able to get to Mass...
Yes, Poesy, that's who I was meaning too. Even they may wish to go to confession, and a priest is required for that.

Quote:
 
... But don't you think it would take the burden off the priest if the lay people could help out by taking the Saraments to those who are invalid or sick and can't get to Mass, this is what I was getting at.


It may take the burden off priests, but that doesn't make it right. This problem has been created. And I do believe that the use of EMHCs is helping to perpetuate the problem.

O Lord, grant us priests
O Lord, grant us holy priests
O Lord, grant us many holy priests
O Lord, grant us many holy religious vocations .

As I illustrated a few posts ago about feeding the 5000, it can't be wrong for lay people to administer to the sick, Jesus commanded it.


So, what problem has been created? I'm, not with your there Clare.

I hope you don't mind me asking as I need clarification but don't always have time to probe more.

With respect Clare, though I don't always agree with everything SSPX says, I do think sometimes they make problems.



I am pretty sure that a priest is not always needed to absolve sins.

If I couldn't get to a preist, then I am pretty confident that with a contrite heart and bended knees that I could ask directly for God's pardon and it will be granted.

Yes, it is wonderful to receive absolution from a priest. But doesnt God do that too, especially if one is sick can't get to Mass , he has already forgiven us.






Edited by Poesy, Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 18:24.
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Clare
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Poesy
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 18:07
As I illustrated a few posts ago about feeding the 5000, it can't be wrong for lay people to administer to the sick, Jesus commanded it.
The Church forbade it. It may have been permitted in times of persecution, I'm not sure, but as a rule, it's forbidden. Where did Jesus command that lay people bring Holy Communion to the sick?

Quote:
 
So, what problem has been created? I'm, not with your there Clare.


The priest shortage. We didn't use to have one.

Quote:
 
I hope you don't mind me asking as I need clarification but don't always have time to probe more.


Not at all, Poesy. :grin:

Quote:
 
With respect Clare, though I don't always agree with everything SSPX says, I do think sometimes they make problems.


I don't think we're really allowed to discuss the SSPX outside the relevant SSPX thread, but I will say that I'm not aware of the practice in any of the "approved" orders (ICKSP, FSSP) being any different. They don't use EMHCs either.

Quote:
 
I am pretty sure that a priest is not always needed to absolve sins.
If I couldn't get to a preist, then I am pretty confident that with a contrite heart and bended knees that I could ask directly for God's pardon and it will be granted.

Only a priest may absolve sins, that is a fact. If a person makes a perfect act of contrition (or is it act of perfect contrition?!) his sins will be forgiven without a priest if there is no priest. If there's no perfect contrition (and it isn't easy to be perfectly contrite!), only a priest can absolve.






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Rose of York
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Clare
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 15:42
Mairtin, you were around before Vatican II. What did women do then? I imagine it would be the same as what trads do now.

So, you should not have to ask. You should know.
I am older than Mairtin. At both parishes frequented by our family, the last Mass on Sundays was always a Sung High Mass. There were more men than women in the choir. One parish had a male organist, the other had a woman. In another neighbouring parish the organist was a man, when he was not available his daughter played.

Every evening the parish priest was in the church, kneeling in a pew, leading evening prayers (not Compline). Once a week, before the Union of Catholic Mothers held their meeting, the members sat on the front seats, on either side. One side would lead the first, third and fifth decades, the other side would lead the second and fourth. That parish still has a tradition of the women being together when remains of the deceased are received into the church. When the priest has finished the liturgy and gone into the sacristy the women lead the congregation in reciting the rosary. It has been going on regularly during my lifetime.
Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
I'm not really bothered about who leads the rosary in a church. It's beside the point. Mairtin only leapt on me because I mentioned that a man (by which I meant one particular man who runs the Mass centre, not "any man, as long as it's a man!") leads the rosary sometimes.
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Rose of York
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Clare
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 16:44
Poesy
Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 16:01
I know that trads don't have Eucharistic ministers,and what I would like to ask Clare is,

1. Who takes the Sacraments to the sick?
A priest.
In theory they do, but how often? Ten SSPX priests in England, Scotland and Wales cannot possibly visit all their sick followers regularly, or at short notice, to hear confessions, give Holy Communion and administer the Sacrament of the Sick, which for all I know they might still reserve for persons in dange of death. Adherents living in the Birmingham/Wolverhampton/Coventry/Walsall area will have to send for the priest who is based in Leicester.

Let us not forget the traditionalist Catholics who attend their local parish Masses, going to Latin Mass when there is one available. Some will not have the services of Extraordinary Ministers, preferring an occasional visit by a priest to a weekly one from a lay person.
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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Clare wrote:

"And I do believe that the use of EMHCs is helping to perpetuate the problem."

How? Clare
Edited by Derekap, Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 20:13.
Derekap
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Poesy
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Clare,

We need to be careful about seeking biblical sanction for even core aspects of the faith.
For instance, where is it shown anywhere in the New Testament, the disciples or anyone else celebrating the Holy Mass. The only example I can think of is the road to Emmaus , where most commentators agree that the two men walking with Our Lord, are two of the disciples, and we know that they are celebrating the Mass , because the Gospel tells us that they saw Him in the breaking of the bread, so it must be the Mass.
Now there maybe somewhere in the acts of the apostles where disciples acting as priests celebrate the Mass, but at this point I can't remember. Certainly, what we don't see in the New Testament after the resurrection is a fairly frequent description of Mass being celebrated, what it is limited to is the commissioning of the disciples, the various adventures of St.Paul and arguably some material on the early development of the Church.
As far as the feeding of the 5000 is concerned, I am pretty sure Our Lord used the disciples as Extraordinary ministers , simply as a means to ensure that there was a methodical distribution of the bread.
Don't forget, and I think this is an important point, the miracle occurred in the distribution of the bread, what He most certainly did not do, was take the bread, put it in a heap , perform a miracle and then it was every man for himself to get a piece of the bread.
So if there was a distribution, ergo there must have been distributors, hence ministers of the Eucharist.


Edited by Poesy, Wednesday, 28. July 2010, 20:16.
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Derekap
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I once read, or was told, that in the early days of the Church people attending Holy Mass took Holy Communion to those unable to attend.
Derekap
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Derekap
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I don't think the feeding of the 5,000 was Holy Communion, just a communal feeding event. After all it was fish and bread - no mention of wine.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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Clare if you are going to blame the reduction in Mass attendance and vocations to the priesthood, to changes resultant in the Second Vatican Council, I feel duty bound tp point out that SSPX have only ten priests for England, Scotland and Wales, the dioeses and religious orders have, between them, a few thousand. Last thing I heard, SSPX attendance was about 1,500. That seems a reliable estimate judging by their Offertory collections as stated on their accounts. In England and Wales weekly Mass attendance is over a million. There are about 350,000 in Scotlsnd. It has dropped considerably in the past forty years. My personal opinion is, that we used to have a lot of people going to Mass because they did not want up face the wrath of their parents. Now we have people of firm faith, devoted to the Mass.

Considering that the numbers of priests and attendees atteninding SSPX Masses on this island, I do not see how their ways have any relevance to practices in our parishes.
Keep the Faith!

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