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| The Sacrament of Confirmation | |
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| Topic Started: Wednesday, 27. September 2006, 22:23 (890 Views) | |
| Joseph | Thursday, 5. November 2009, 13:58 Post #121 |
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The plot thickens, PJD ;-) You do realise that we are all hanging on a string here, waiting to wade in with all sorts of profound thoughts and opinions on this topic, but holding our breath in anticipation of your findings? In the meantime a few extra little clues may help us to breath more easily in the meantime. ;-) |
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| PJD | Thursday, 5. November 2009, 18:59 Post #122 |
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Joseph My remarks above were only intended to indicate that, for me, my follow-up to this thread has been somewhat delayed, but obviously not forgotten. Again for me there is also a difficulty in navigating properly the coursing of thoughts so far through the Mary-Martha route. In the meantime I can give you one consideration. And that is, just as sin is sin yet the sinner may not be ‘formally’ sinful, so in like fashion error may be error yet the circumstances relating to the actors involved may not be error attributed to them ‘formally. I have taken this from Catholic doctrine which defines sin into two parts i.e. formal and material – the material constituent not being subject to penalty (or if any of minute proportion). Again on the opposite of the coin for example, as you will know already, a parent missing Mass due to Sunday working does not sin formally even though the duty has not been fulfilled. PJD |
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| Joseph | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 17:04 Post #123 |
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Well. I think I understand all that PJD, but I have to admit it's relevance to Confirmation escapes me just now. Maybe I am being a little dim - sorry! |
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| PJD | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 20:27 Post #124 |
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The point may be better put Joseph inasmuch as grave error in the context of this sacramental process has nothing directly to do with sin. Thus - take for example those actors called parents - we cannot 'point the finger' at their supposed or theoretical inadequacies (many of which may be wrongly assumed) as a reason for justifying error - or in fact as having any connection whatsoever with it. Same also applies to other groups such as teachers, heads, bishops etc. Compassion is required here simply because all these groups have to run alongside such error - if indeed there is grave error. The error in this case being put forward was the age transfer from primary to secondary (subject here of course to discussion/agreement/disagreement within this topic by its members.) Bear in mind also that error inevitably leads to failure. And re the take up of this Sacrament we have failure. What might be next Joseph - a holographic of six instead of seven sacraments? PJD. |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 20:47 Post #125 |
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Not necessary PJD - very few people are given all seven sacraments. |
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| PJD | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 20:54 Post #126 |
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I do know that OsB! I was being glib -= I think (smile) PJD |
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| OsullivanB | Saturday, 7. November 2009, 20:56 Post #127 |
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Sorry - sometimes hard to tell. |
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| PJD | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 07:58 Post #128 |
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To continue a little OsB. How does Holy Mother Church continue to fight the good fight effectively if it is proceeding along a path which leaves it with very few soldiers in the field? PJD |
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| PJD | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 16:39 Post #129 |
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.........the Church desires that none of her children, even the youngest, should depart this world without having been perfected by the Holy Spirit with the gift of Christ's fullness. [1314] PJD (duplicated from Deacons topic) |
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| Joseph | Sunday, 8. November 2009, 22:38 Post #130 |
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Thanks for that elucidation PJD. It seems to me that you are rather hung-up on the timing of this Sacrament:- The error in this case being put forward was the age transfer from primary to secondary (subject here of course to discussion/agreement/disagreement within this topic by its members.) Whilst I can see that timing can be of great importance, I'm not sure that any of us in here know when, why or how widespread was the age transfer made, and without that data we can only speculate on what effect such a change has had on the take-up of this Sacrament in our schools. May I therefore move the discussion on a little? There are several aspects I would like to discuss:- 1) The significance of the Sacrament as seen by children in our schools. 2) The significance of the Sacrament as seen by 'ordinary' adult Catholics. 3) The significance of the Sacrament in terms of qualifying the recipient, eg, as a 'genuine' Catholic; as one eligible to be married in a Catholic Church with Nuptial Mass, etc. 4) The take-up (if any) of Adult Confirmation in the Catholic Church by 'cradle' Catholics, for no reason other than they now want it, having missed-out on it in their youth.[/b] Any thoughts or comments on these factors? The concern behind them in my mind is that it may be that many/most of those who opt out, and stay out, have no real appreciation of what it is about, whereas if it were a precondition for moving on to receiving our First Holy Communion, for example, I doubt if their would be many refusals. (Edited to emphasise questions) Edited by Joseph, Monday, 9. November 2009, 11:42.
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| Rose of York | Monday, 9. November 2009, 01:10 Post #131 |
Administrator
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A non-Catholic fiance can be married with nuptial Mass. I am pretty sure that so long as one is baptised a Catholic that suffices, whether or not the person is confirmed. |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| PJD | Monday, 9. November 2009, 09:14 Post #132 |
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Thank you for your input Joseph; will reply asap. Please consider - in the meantime - regarding opt out. From where I am at the moment what I see/learn is there is no opt out as you term it, just a process that encourages not opting in. PJD |
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| Joseph | Monday, 9. November 2009, 11:37 Post #133 |
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OK PJD. But, whichever way one likes to look at it, the important thing is that many children are not choosing to be Confirmed. |
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| Joseph | Monday, 9. November 2009, 11:58 Post #134 |
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I think that makes the point Rose - what significance does Confirmation have in 'qualifying' the recipient? We are told that Confirmation completes the Catholic Initiation - so if we are 'incomplete' Catholics without it, how can we be allowed to participate in all the Sacraments? In the past, this was not allowed was it? And even today those going through the RCIA process are not allowed to receive Holy Communion until they have been Confirmed in the Catholic Faith, even though they may have previously been validly Baptised. So why should this be different for 'cradle' Catholics who have yet to be Confirmed? PS Are you sure that "A non-Catholic fiance can be married with nuptial Mass."? I know they can be married in a Catholic Church, and have that marriage blessed, but I thought Nuptial Marriage could only be celebrated by practicing Catholics. Edited by Joseph, Monday, 9. November 2009, 12:04.
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| OsullivanB | Monday, 9. November 2009, 12:06 Post #135 |
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That used to be the rule but has not been so since 1966. I'm sure there are places where this is more fully expounded but for now you might like to look at: http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/MIXED.TXT Edited by OsullivanB, Monday, 9. November 2009, 12:09.
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