| We hope you enjoy your visit! You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harasment, and crude or sexually-explicit language. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Teaching the Christian Message | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Saturday, 10. October 2009, 19:47 (1,913 Views) | |
| Richard Hannay. | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 19:47 Post #1 |
|
To get back to free will genes etc I think that ever since we discovered our free will we have been learning how to handle it. There is a natural goodness but there is also an inherent evil in the world and the two are always in opposition and so we must be on our guard. If as Clare has correctly identified, the tolerance for immorality seems to be higher today than in the past we do need to consider the effectiveness of the church’s teaching. That does not mean changing or ignoring it, it means presenting it in a manner that is more easily understood by the current generation. Nor does it meen that there was a time when things were rosy. In the past Hell Fire and Damnation worked fine but... In the 20century we had WW1, WW2, the nuclear age and the cold war. There has been mass genocide of the Armenians, Jews and Muslims in Europe as well as other groups to numerous to mentionon all the earths continents. People have seen nothing but horror in the real world without any assistance from TV to realise that, "Hell fire and Damnation" are already here. When I was a lad one did as you were told or you felt the cane or the strap and I am sure others knew such times but did these punishments stop me getting into mischief... no.. I just became crafty and avoided getting caught. The old Hell fire and damnation taught people that when caught they would be punished and when a person’s life is already miserable sometimes this is a pretty meaningless threat. I believe that Jesus gave us a message of Hope. Live a good life and you will be rewarded. Make the effort, any effort and you will see your investment returned a 100 fold. I think the church should try to focus its teaching on why people should be Christian and the answer is because it is rewarding and one can find positive reasons for living a good life. make being a Catholic a posative thing same message same teaching but in a more posative package... a tall order so yes some may give up and others may retreat to the comfort of a golden age sometime back whenever but the challenge Jesus gave us was to go out and teach the whole world not sit in and hang on desperatly to a bygon age. I may not agree with Mairtin in the particulars but he is right about one thing the church has to improve its image and presentation of its teaching. Free will gives us a responsibility which we must learn to manage. |
 |
 
|
| Emee | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 20:11 Post #2 |
|
Gosh you don't half talk some sense Richard... (Clare as an aside, in response to the earlier 'flat earth' discussion, and you saying the Bible never mentioned the earth was flat etc, how did the Church Fathers interpret the phrase "ends of the earth" then? Doesn't lie with it being discovered to be a globe. Genuine question. Not stirring, promise!!  )
|
|
|
|
| Richard Hannay. | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 20:21 Post #3 |
|
Thanks Emee, I half talk some rubish as well but this time I think I got it right, 
Edited by Richard Hannay., Saturday, 10. October 2009, 20:21.
|
|
|
|
| Clare | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 20:33 Post #4 |
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman
|
A figure of speech, perhaps, I don't know. Besides, the earth could have ends and be a cube! But the Vulgate does, I'm pretty sure, refer to the earth as an orb. Edit to add: the North and South Poles could be considered ends, couldn't they? Edited by Clare, Saturday, 10. October 2009, 20:35.
|
|
S.A.G. My attempt at a blog. | |
|
|
|
| Rose of York | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 20:47 Post #5 |
Administrator
|
Yes it is cubic, with ramped exit to make it easily exit-able by all, when we are on our way to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. Am I the only one to have noticed the sky has corners? |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
|
|
|
| Mairtin | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 21:42 Post #6 |
|
I wasn’t seeking to “blame” anybody, Clare, I was simply asking your opinion. You are correct that a strict interpretation of Church teaching is that any form of regulation of birth is only acceptable for grave reasons. That does mean that the Catholic duty of a young woman sound of mind and body is to bear as many children as she can, maybe 20+ as was not unknown in our parents' generation. I would be interested in hearing that reasoning defended by someone who is generally adamant that Church teaching is black and white; you are not usually so reticent in matters like this. |
|
Online Prayer - Night Prayer, Rosary and Lectio Divina Visit www.roomtopray.net for details of days and times | |
|
|
|
| Mairtin | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 21:46 Post #7 |
|
Richard That is an excellent post. Can I put this argument forward? Is it a cop-out for us to blame the wider world for going downhill? Jesus Christ gave us a wonderful gift, one that can ease all the pain and suffering in the world and make it a far better place for everyone. If we have been unable to convince people about the value of this gift, does the fault maybe lie with us rather than with those we have failed to convince? |
|
Online Prayer - Night Prayer, Rosary and Lectio Divina Visit www.roomtopray.net for details of days and times | |
|
|
|
| Richard Hannay. | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 23:07 Post #8 |
|
We were tasked with the message so it is our responsibility to deliver it. If people listen then all well and good but if they do not then the fault lies... where? Jesus acknowledged that not all who heard would listen and instructed the disciples not to waste their time with the obstinate and wipe the dust from their shoes when leaving a town where people refused to listen. So, even the best teacher acknowledged that, some people are not willing to learn. Does that mean Jesus wrote them off, I do not think so? I think he was hoping that in time if the message took hold and more people began to live according to it, then those who had at first rejected the message would come to embrace it. The time scale of this conversion is not fixed so it may be that in our generation we may not get the message to all but as good teachers we should encourage and support all who listen and make sure that the obstinate are at least given a chance to learn. If a person is given a chance to learn and refuses to take it then that is their choice and they are responsible for the consequences, but if the teaching is poor what chance do they have? We do the best we can. Education is never easy. How many parents find themselves struggling to convince one of their offspring of the importance of something but abandon the task, while retaining the hope that somehow the child will learn. The parent has failed at one level but at another has had the wisdom to accept that maybe this is a topic the child will have to learn some other way or at another time. By accepting this, the parent is free to try another topic with the relationship with the child intact. Then surprise, surprise, after many other things have been learnt the child finally grasps the point of the abandoned topic. So I think it is with the teaching of the church. Not everyone will grasp everything in the same way and at the same time and as a teacher the church has to be adaptable and move at the pace of the pupil with patience and understanding. Switching topics as and when required to retain interest in learning. So some time on scripture; some time on theology; some on hagiographies etc etc... The subject, growing in knowledge of God and understanding of way of life shown to us by Jesus, remaining the same. So providing one looks at the subject as a whole and accepts that one or two topics may be more problematic with some pupils than with others the church is responsible for teaching the message of Christ and will ultimately be asked by Christ to render and account of their mission. Should they account to their pupils well again what parent does not ultimately hope to see their child progress and feel a sense of regret that maybe they could have done more to encourage them if they don’t. Proud of the child’s success and perhaps frustrated when the child does not take advantage of the gifts offered. Happy to lend a hand but angry when that gift of an injection of time/cash/ or both is wasted. Who is at fault teacher or pupil, parent or child if things are not learnt? Not an easy question to answer. The above post is just a poor attempt. |
|
|
|
| Richard Hannay. | Saturday, 10. October 2009, 23:21 Post #9 |
|
I should add that the church has to handle millions of individuals and sometimes it should be forgiven if occasionally it gets muddled and gets out of step. As pupils we are pretty good at dawdling and doodling at times and may not always pay adequate attention. We should have a certain degree of self motivation. However I plod along in the lower 4th and hope one day to make the grade and if I can help the odd fellow pupil along the way so much the better. I would never be foolish enough to repeat the folly of suggesting I know better than my head teacher. I agree with you Mairtin when you suggest that it may be "a cop-out for us to blame the wider world for going downhill?" The conditions we are in and the opposition to the message have to be taken into account as a general preparing a battle must consider the nature of the opposition but he must also consider the loyalty and strength of his own army. There is little doubt in my mind that many Catholics in the UK are less robust and willing to "Fight the Good Fight" than they were a few generations ago. Life is comfortable, why rock the boat? My friends don't go to Church and they’re OK. One only has to glance through some of the threads in this forum to recognise that there is no longer the same willingness by the person in the pew to accept the authority of the church as once we did. So I think some motivation and morale needs to be injected into the church before we tackle some of the issues of the wider world. In a sense we need to put our own house in order before we presume to do battle with others. Edited by Richard Hannay., Sunday, 11. October 2009, 07:40.
|
|
|
|
| Richard Hannay. | Sunday, 11. October 2009, 07:46 Post #10 |
|
To return to the teaching metaphor the head teacher would do well to recognise that the staff and pupils are tired and perhaps need a rest, If one looks back over the 50 year period that Clare mentions the amount of information and changes that the average catholic has had to absorb compared to the previous generations of Catholics. 50 years ago many Catholics would not have had a bible in the house a missal and a prayer book perhaps with only the psalms and a few selected passages from the bible. Now we are all encouraged to read the bible, unfortunately few have been trained to read it with the necessary discernment and so people are confused by differing accounts and odd phrases. It is the churches fault for in opening the scriptures it should also have opened more scripture workshops and study groups in parishes and deaneries, so inadequate teaching has led people to be confused rather than enlightened by the wonderful reform that allowed the scriptures to be opened. Once it was sufficient to say, here is the catechism learn it by rote and all will be clear, but now the average lay person needs to be given more than an off pat tried and tested on cap fits all explanation. All this before we even begin to look at the reforms of Vat II, most of which lies dormant and a mystery to the average person because apart from the liturgical reforms that hit all of us some of the reforms were not seen to be relevant and there I think the church got its teaching priorities muddled up. I think it would have been better to have prepared the ground by releasing Gaudium et Spes and Lumen Gencium first. These should have been studied in seminaries and then by parishioners, PPs and Curates having been given a prior course of instruction. Once these had been released and explained and discussed in the pews many of the liturgical reforms that followed would have made sense but no, the new liturgy was imposed, in many cases without explanation. I could go on but I think you get my drift. |
|
|
|
| Richard Hannay. | Sunday, 11. October 2009, 07:48 Post #11 |
|
Ok am on a role so forgive me I will go on...  There is nothing wrong with the message and basically not a lot wrong with the teachers or the pupils but we have all had a long hard term and maybe it is time to rest and regroup before trying to learn or teach anything else. I would love to see more parish study groups looking at the two documents I referred to from Vat II, I have in the past been to some excellent Advent and Lent groups where the relevant passages of scripture have been explored. Sadly it does not look as though the parish will have an Advent class this year. Although I may voluntear to facilitate one if a suitable set text can be provided by the PP. Maybe that is a role we could all look at. I have the time others may not be available. The linking though of the O Antiphons and the exploration of the Messianic prophecies all make the Christmas readings so much more meaningful than a few good sermons, although they are welcome. The new missal is coming but how many of us have had a heads up from our PP or any hint that there may be preparatory classes. To be fair my PP is working his socks off so when he would have time is hard to know but again maybe a volunteer from the parish could be sent on a course and bring the information back and share it in a couple of sessions. I think the responsibility for teaching the message rests with the church but if we had studied and learnt from Lumen Gensium we would be aware that we are the church, we are the People of God so when we blame the church for its failings we must accept that some of that blame rests on us. We are all tasked to "Go teach all Nations" That is just one concept that we have had to grasp in the last 50 years, it’s no wonder the church n the UK is a little weary at the moment but with good heart and training we shall regain momentum and take the message forward. Edited by Richard Hannay., Sunday, 11. October 2009, 07:51.
|
|
|
|
| Clare | Sunday, 11. October 2009, 08:46 Post #12 |
|
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman
|
I think you may have hit upon a way of getting around the "six inch rule", Richard! 
|
|
S.A.G. My attempt at a blog. | |
|
|
|
| PJD | Sunday, 11. October 2009, 10:58 Post #13 |
|
"I think the responsibility for teaching the message rests with the church but if we had studied and learnt from Lumen Gensium we would be aware that we are the church, we are the People of God so when we blame the church for its failings we must accept that some of that blame rests on us. We are all tasked to "Go teach all Nations" That is just one concept that we have had to grasp in the last 50 years, it’s no wonder the church n the UK is a little weary at the moment but with good heart and training we shall regain momentum and take the message forward." I agree with that Richard. Personally I am inclined to the view that to 'regain momentum' requires a fundamental re-think in the methods used; and that currently such a 're-appraisal' should take into account lessons from history. What I mean pivots on the fact that, although the message is the same, the methods change acccording to the circumstances of the period. For example the method and practice of teaching adopted by those in the 15th century were not the same as those in the 19th, and subsequently likewise for those in the 20th, and so on. Recently we have had produced many documents, curriculum, etc., in the area of teaching methods. For example the 're-appraisal' recommended by texts such as Fit For Mission series, where again the principles were the same but unfortunately, in my currently opinion, the method did not fit best practices (or rather historical evolution) appertaining to the 21st century - such methods stuck in the methodology used in the early to middle 20th. PJD |
|
|
| Mairtin | Sunday, 11. October 2009, 12:17 Post #14 |
|
You make a number of important points, Richard. I agree 100% with you that it is very hard to establish where we lie on that line between us being weak salesmen, so to speak, and facing the fact that there are people out there who will never want to hear the message no matter how much effort we out into spreading it. My own gut feel is that we are somewhere towards the middle of that line, yes there are a lot of people we will never be able to reach but equally there are a lot of people who are hungry for the message but we are simply not good at giving it to them. For what it’s worth, here are what I regard as some of the factors preventing us getting our message through:
|
|
Online Prayer - Night Prayer, Rosary and Lectio Divina Visit www.roomtopray.net for details of days and times | |
|
|
|
| Richard Hannay. | Sunday, 11. October 2009, 12:29 Post #15 |
|
I actually see this branch as a progression of the way we train our train and exorcise our free will. It may also touch on the manner in which we are nurtured and the faith we inherit. However Mairtin began this thread so I have no objection to his request that this particular branch be transferred to a thread on its own. Post 139 by Clare set my mind on this tack so maybe that is where we could make the split, if Mairtin agrees.
Edited by Richard Hannay., Sunday, 11. October 2009, 12:31.
|
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · General Catholic Discussion · Next Topic » | |
7:08 PM Nov 24