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What is "Prophecy" ?
Topic Started: Friday, 18. September 2009, 09:55 (738 Views)
Gerard

Power,

To continue our discussion from another thread it would help if we went back to the beginning.

What is your definition of prophecy ?

Gerard
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

I thought this was rather interesting and pertinent to this discussion.
These are the Intercessions from this (18 Sept) morning's Lauds:

Quote:
 
Prayers and Intercessions
God takes care of all whom he has created and redeemed through his Son. We put our trust in him and renew our prayer:
– Lord, you have worked wonders among us.
Lord of compassion, make our hearts pure and guide our steps,
so that we remember what is true, and just, and worthy of love.
– Lord, you have worked wonders among us.
For your name’s sake, O God, do not abandon us for ever:
do not let your covenant fade away.
– Lord, you have worked wonders among us.
Receive our contrite and humble hearts:
for those who put their trust in you will never be disappointed.
– Lord, you have worked wonders among us.
You called us to be prophets in Christ:
may we always proclaim your power.
– Lord, you have worked wonders among us.


Colouring - mine.

A link to Lauds:

http://www.universalis.com/lauds.htm

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Friday, 18. September 2009, 10:29.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
I hope I'll be forgiven for checking The Catholic Encyclopedia!

Quote:
 
Prophecy
As the term is used in mystical theology, it applies both to the prophecies of canonical Scripture and to private prophecies. Understood in its strict sense, it means the foreknowledge of future events, though it may sometimes apply to past events of which there is no memory, and to present hidden things which cannot be known by the natural light of reason. St. Paul, speaking of prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14, does not confine its meaning to predictions of future events, but includes under it Divine inspirations concerning what is secret, whether future or not. As, however, the manifestation of hidden present mysteries or past events comes under revelation, we have here to understand by prophecy what is in its strict and proper sense, namely the revelation of future events. Prophecy consists in knowledge and in the manifestation of what is known. The knowledge must be supernatural and infused by God because it concerns things beyond the natural power of created intelligence; and the knowledge must be manifested either by words or signs, because the gift of prophecy is given primarily for the good of others, and hence needs to be manifested. It is a Divine light by which God reveals things concerning the unknown future and by which these things are in some way represented to the mind of the prophet, whose duty it is to manifest them to others.
...


S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

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OsullivanB

Could that not be expressed more succinctly as:

Prophecy is divinely inspired clairvoyance?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Gerard

No
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

Err, well actually - Yes, more or less.

Which shows that the above passage, cut out from the (rather long and rambling) article, is not a good definition of prophecy.


Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Friday, 18. September 2009, 11:40.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Powerofone

GerardThursday, 17. September 2009, 19:08
Sounds like an OT prophet to me.
And that sounds like Amos.Sounds like - yes. In objective reality - no.
Does any of them preface their remarks with the customary "And YHWH commanded me to speak unto you" or "It is the Lord who speaks"?
No. Because they have not been sent out.
Let's not confuse metaphor or analogy with objective reality.


The commonly understood notion of a prophet is one who is sent by the Lord. It is a compulsion. Many complain and seek excuses that they are unable to cope or speak. Jonah even ran in the opposite direction to escape his responsibilities. In the NT, only one man receives this mission - John the Baptist. He is sent by the Lord. He was given special hidden knowledge of future events.

To classify the post pentecostal events in the same light would be a mistake.
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Powerofone

Gerard
Friday, 18. September 2009, 11:32
Err, well actually - Yes, more or less.

Which shows that the above passage, cut out from the (rather long and rambling) article, is not a good definition of prophecy.


Gerry
The ball's in your court Gerry. Supply a definition that surpasses the one above.
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PJD

"Err, well actually - Yes, more or less.
Which shows that the above passage, cut out from the (rather long and rambling) article, is not a good definition of prophecy.
Gerry"


I agree.

The article in a certain sense faces two directions, each equal - presumably unable to articulate it otherwise.

PJD
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Gerard

Power,

Will do, but first I would like to deal with your own quote:

Quote:
 
The commonly understood notion of a prophet is one who is sent by the Lord. It is a compulsion. Many complain and seek excuses that they are unable to cope or speak. Jonah even ran in the opposite direction to escape his responsibilities. In the NT, only one man receives this mission - John the Baptist. He is sent by the Lord. He was given special hidden knowledge of future events.


I think we have the answer to all the difficulty in that first sentence:

Quote:
 
The commonly understood notion of a prophet is .......................


The problem being that we are not taught what a prophet is or what prophecy is but we hear about it in Scripture and preaching and we come to a vague understanding of it which is usually wrong and usually something big and only for special people - not for us.

Quote:
 
one who is sent by the Lord


That would be an apostle.

Quote:
 
In the NT, only one man receives this mission - John the Baptist


So, now, I only need to show one other prophet in the NT to prove this statement wrong.

Acts 21: 8 and 9 say:

Quote:
 
On the next day we resumed the trip and came to Caesarea, where we went to the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the Seven, and stayed with him. He had four virgin daughters gifted with prophecy.


Other translations say "four daughters who were prophets". So here are four for you.

Ahh, but they are women and you said there was only one man? OK, lets look at the next verses.

Acts 21:10 and 11 say:

Quote:
 
We had been there several days when a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
He came up to us, took Paul's belt, bound his own feet and hands with it, and said, "Thus says the holy Spirit: This is the way the Jews will bind the owner of this belt in Jerusalem, and they will hand him over to the Gentiles."


Agabus was a man - clearly a prophet, revealed future things about the Paul and the Church.

Enough now.

Here is a good definition of prophecy. It is from a book by the well known teacher and preacher, the Priest and Monk, Fr Ian Petit.

Quote:
 
Prophecy is when God reveals his heart and mind, through a person, to an individual or to a group. The message may concern the future or it may not; it could be a warning or a correction about some past event, or it could be a message of comfort in a time of trial.


Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Powerofone

Just the nagging little voice then? No "Thus says the Lord". No "It is the Lord who speaks".
How then is it to be distinguished from the promptings of an informed conscience?
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Gerard

Right!
No "Thus says the Lord"
Believe me, I know people who begin with "Thus says the Lord", and sometimes it is.

The promptings might be little
Or they might be big ones.
or they might be VERY BIG ones.

How do we know its prophecy - we use our discernment. Which may be natural or itself a gift.
In natural discernment we ask
"does this sound like the God I know?"
"does it tend towards agreement with Scripture or tend to contradict Scripture?"
"does it tend towards agreement with Church Teaching does it tend to contradict Church Teaching?"

With the gift of discernment you would just "know".

With VERY BIG prophecies - the Bishop may choose to give an official discernment.

Gerry
Edited by Gerard, Friday, 18. September 2009, 16:47.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Powerofone

How then is prophesy to be distinguished from the promptings of an informed conscience?
Words either have meaning or they don't. I'm not comfortable with a slushy ambiguous definition that covers a multitude.
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Gerard

Quote:
 
Prophecy is when God reveals his heart and mind, through a person, to an individual or to a group


What is slushy or ambiguous about that?

This is not maths or science its about the communication of God with His people. The words or picture (or whatever) given to one person - when spoken out to another person will have meaning in the life of that second person. Either to correct, encourage or advise.

Gerry

"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Gerard

P.S.

I agree it is a wide definition, but thats whats needed. Anything narrower will fall over.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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