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| Tony Blair & religion;; former PM's views & comments | |
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| Topic Started: Sunday, 24. June 2007, 17:35 (1,202 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Monday, 2. June 2008, 19:47 Post #136 |
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Quick! Somebody tell the Pope, the Chief Rabbi, the Dalai Lama, and the Archbishop of Canterbury they are redundant.
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Phil_sfo | Tuesday, 3. June 2008, 01:16 Post #137 |
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I do hope that Tony Blair is sincere in what he now says and does. However, coming so hard on the heels of the dreadful legislative gaffs, nay, serious errors, he made as a Catholic-in-the-making, I find it difficult to accept the man - particularly when his wife, who has been privy to his thoughts and attitudes and presumably answered some of his questions about the Catholic faith, describes herself on national TV as a "good Catholic girl" and then goes on to give her support to the use of contraception etc. I think that they both need our prayers. |
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| Emee | Tuesday, 3. June 2008, 09:57 Post #138 |
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Agreed Phil. To liken religious faith as being as significant as "political ideology" still sounds like dangerous territory to my mind. In religion there is no room for ambition - it is the little and the weak and humble who are the winners. |
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| Mike F | Wednesday, 4. June 2008, 13:54 Post #139 |
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As an American I have relatively little knowledge of Mr. Blair, his politics, his political stances, and his contributions to the sociopolitical landscape in the UK. However, I greatly respect and admire his loyalty and courage as an ally in Iraq and Afghanistan. He remained faithful to our common cause, he is willing to stand against evil, he understands that freedom is not free. I'm sure he and I do not agree on many things, but I am glad to see a man who still has a set teaching our young people. Occasionally, my wife and I enjoy broadcasts of Parliament on some obscure cable channel, where the PM sits and stands and answers questions from the members... not sure what this is, but it is fun to watch, so British. I liked watching Blair, I could tell he was a man of honor, dignity and good cheer, I could tell he has a kind heart, I know I'd like him. As for his "Catholicism"... we all have our demons. |
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| Phil_sfo | Wednesday, 4. June 2008, 17:44 Post #140 |
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Where there is money at stake you'll find unrest and where there is oil at stake you'll see war. That's why Robert Mugabwe gets away, literally, with murder; why Burma is calling the shots despite all the money being gathered to help those dying of hunger and disease;why Nigeria is a free-for-all. Even the UN just mutters away. Why are there so many aid agencies toiling away...out of sheer charity? You see, while politics are hard to argue, the telling things are the changes made. In the UK, before Blair's conversion, we legalised same-sex marriages, we have firefighters being demoted and sacked for refusing to hand out gay-pride leaflets out at an annual firefighters display. The Human Rights Act has resulted in a wave of Political Correctness that defies belief. The Catholic Adoption Agencies are closing down as they cannot refuse children to same-sex couples. School children are being given contraceptives and abortions arranged without the parents' knowledge.....and so it goes on. For my own reasons I can't condone the Irag or Afghansitan wars...quite apart from the fact that I think it has all been handled wrongly, but that's not for this thread and I don't want to argue politics. What I do want to see is more concern shown for religious beliefs than your one sentence after many more about the political aspect. |
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| Mike F | Wednesday, 4. June 2008, 19:30 Post #141 |
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Wow! The UK sounds liked the secular humanist socialist utopia American progressives desire. Sorry to hear about your mess. I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say, "What I do want to see is more concern shown for religious beliefs than your one sentence after many more about the political aspect." This thread is labeled " Current Affairs - Government, Politics, News and Social Issues → Political, Social and News Discussion → Mr Blair Goes To Yale" Frankly, I couldn't know what is in Mr. Blair's heart, I can only judge his actions, and it sounds as though he has left a wake of destruction as a legacy. Who can tell how all that has attacked souls. OK, you changed my mind, Mr. Blair is a horrid man, he'll fit right in at Yale. |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 4. June 2008, 22:24 Post #142 |
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MikeF, this may enlighten you: Britain had, as you will know, many colonies, most of which are not independent - no longer ruled by Britain. Rhodesia was one such colony. Part of it is now called Zimbabwe. I have two friends, both in their eighties, who fled Zimbabwe. The woman was born in England, the man in Rhodesia, to English parents who had emigrated. The woman said to me "In September 1939 my husband and his father answered the call to protect the Mother country. George served six years, in the Army, fighting for freedom." Thousands of Rhodesians who had never before been to Britain joined the Commonwealth forces, and some laid down their lives. Britain is doing nothing for those people. Our government is doing nothing for a country from which we benefited for over a hundred years. We gained from their produce, we have now abandoned the native black Zimbabweans and are doing nothing to help the descendants of the white settlers. My friends were extremely wealthy, they had a fine home, high income, savings, servants, social position. Now, in their eighties, they live in a damp forty year old caravan. That is all they can afford. People who have never before had any connection with the United Kingdom can come here, do no work, and receive more financial state assistance than my friends. George FOUGHT for this country. Now, on cold days, I see him sitting by his window, wearing a thick sweater and a woolly hat to protect himself from the cold. Considering how few of the Rhodesians (now called Zimbabweans) who fought in World War II are alive, it would not have hurt Mr Blair to give them adequate financial support, and assistance with decent housing. Mister Blair is proposing telling the human race about the value of religion. "Love thy neighbour"???????????????? |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Mike F | Wednesday, 4. June 2008, 23:14 Post #143 |
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Under what circumstances did Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) become independent from great Britain? Did the people revolt, declare independence, did GB leave? I guess what I'm getting at is the extent of GB's moral responsibility to them now? Your argument sounds much like the arguments here for reparations for slavery. While I understand, to some small degree, the argument, I find it hard to place blame on ALL white people for the sins of a few 250 years ago. As a society, we outlawed slavery, we finally outlawed segregation and have spent $trillions since the 60's to assist blacks in their effort to lift themselves by making opportunities available. The goal was noble, but the approach lacked true justice, and therefore was loveless-- the result is the near destruction of the black family in the US, 75% have no fathers, and 25% of all young black males are in prison. My limited knowledge of modern day Zimbabwe leaves me thinking that their problems have little to do with Britain's imperialism, and much to do with corruption. Most, if not all, very poor nations in this world suffer a lack of personal liberty, leaving them vulnerable at the hands of corrupt local leaders and complicit international monetary organizations together plundering natural resources leaving no share of the wealth to the citizenry. Poverty can only be overcome through human liberty. GB, most Western nations, including America, are complicit in this global plunder. For his part, Mr. Blair shares in the guilt. |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 4. June 2008, 23:33 Post #144 |
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Mike, I agree with all you say. Britain is not the cause of the current problems in Zimbabwe, but neither is it the cause of problems in Iraq. If you would like more information about Rhodesia gaining independence, this Wikepedia article seems pretty accurate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia In the sixties the black people wanted independence. The white rulers objected. There was quite a performance over it. Many in this country felt the black Africans were not yet ready for self rule. I think time has proved them right. Nothing to do with colour, the native Africans lacked a sufficient number of people with education and experience, combined with integrity, to take on the responsibility of Government. I say that if the developed countries are in Iraq but doing nothing for the people (both black and white) of Zimbabwe, we should be told why. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Mike F | Thursday, 5. June 2008, 14:21 Post #145 |
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Rose, "the native Africans lacked a sufficient number of people with education and experience, combined with integrity, to take on the responsibility of Government." At the risk of offending you, which I do not intend, I am reviled by such suppositions. History teaches us that human liberty is the one key ingredient needed to end human suffering. I reject the opinion that any people are not ready to self govern because they aren't educated enough or sophisticated enough. I heard that argument about Iraq... that "those people" just can't handle democracy, aren't ready for liberty. I find that kind of thinking staggeringly wrong, and so imperialistic. Here in America, and it seems in the UK, the "educated, sophisticated and elite classes" are no better at choosing leaders who are honorable. We get what we demand, some here have chosen a committed marxist as their nominee for president... one might conclude that those people just aren't ready to make such decisions, but that would not be very American. I bet that if the people in Zimbabwe were allowed to really self govern, freely go about their business, securely own property, find justice in the courts, openly trade and enjoy the product of their labors, they'd build a great nation where peace and prosperity are the rule. The best thing first-world nations can do for the poor is to rid them of dictators and tyrants, demand accountability of them as equal neighbors, and then leave them alone. |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 5. June 2008, 15:09 Post #146 |
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Does anyone more knowledgable than me think that if and when the opposition to Mugabe comes to power things will be much better? I don't think there is any similarity between the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan and the situation in Zimbabwe. I think anyone who thought Afghanistan and the region generally could be made peaceful in a short time was an idealistic optomist. The British tried for many, many, many years over a hundred years ago. Then more recently the USSR tried and for once in their lives gave-up. It is interesting to note the recent violent demonstrations in The Republic of South Africa against immigration of Africans from other countries, including Zimbabwe, on the grounds of jobs and housing. |
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| Phil_sfo | Thursday, 5. June 2008, 18:25 Post #147 |
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Sorry mike. No offence intended. It's just that I hope and pray that Tony Blair has changed his spots - and who are we to judge? Also, we've just heard that the US wants/intends having about 50 permanent or long term bases in Iraq, and immunity for US troops and contractors etc. etc... much to the concern of the Iraqi government and public.... the sort of thing that was hinted might happen when Bush shouted "Let's go" and our PM followed him to be on the band wagon. |
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| Mike F | Friday, 6. June 2008, 14:49 Post #148 |
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No offense taken. "long term bases in Iraq" You should be grateful somebody is willing to stand a post to protect your luxury to wonder about such things. Take a look at post-WWII Germany-- we still have huge bases there, also Korea and Japan. Our troops are still in Bosnia, Hatti, etc. We won't be in Iraq unless the government there asks us to stay. We have bases all over the middle east, east Africa, Southwestern Asia, the Indian Ocean, the Pacific rim, and more. We have carrier fleets and nuclear subs traversing the globe with all the power to destroy entire countries. We aren't alone. It is very naive to think bases in Iraq won't be a reality. This is the world we live in because we live in a broken world. Look to people like Kim Jong Il, Ahmadinejad, Castro, Hamas, Al Qaeda, the PLO, Kadafi, etc. if you want to be outraged about military bases anywhere. I always think it queer that the world weeps and cries for justice when an American soldier mistakenly kills a civilian during a firefight, but chooses indifference when an Islamo-fascist detonates a small boy to kill the same civilians. Edited by Mike F, Friday, 6. June 2008, 14:49.
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| Rose of York | Friday, 6. June 2008, 15:57 Post #149 |
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Mike, sorry but I feel the need to correct you there. On the whole, the British people do care very much when Islamo-fascists detonate bombs, whether they are in Iraq, Britain, USA or anywhere else. We have had our share of them (though not on the same scale as the Twin Towers outrage). Having endured attacks from Irish terrorist groups for decades, we are aware of the suffering caused by extremists of any persuasion. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Phil_sfo | Sunday, 8. June 2008, 16:15 Post #150 |
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I know that that is the broader picture but, nevertheless, with more and more money being spent while Mugabe and similar dictators continue to thumb their noses at the west, the general opinion seems to be that if there's no oil in the area then the wheels will grind slowly. However, we're letting Tony Blair off meantime by criticising the US government. |
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7:53 PM Jul 11