Cash in the Church

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Cash in the Church; The Jesuits
Topic Started: Monday, 31. August 2009, 18:29 (1,183 Views)
John Sweeney	Monday, 31. August 2009, 18:29 Post #1
Posts: 1,853 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	My source for this story is the Tablet. The views are mine. The paper reports that the Jesuits are cutting back on their charitable work after suffering heavy losses on their investments in the economic crisis. Bad news for the charitable projects concerned. However, my reason for posting on this is the scale of the figures involved. Latest figures show that the Jesuits in Britain have a spending deficit of Ł9m with net investment losses of Ł42m due to the global downturn. The jesuits say that despite this they remain in good financial state. My worry is that this news has come about only because of the losses. In happier times ie a couple of years ago, the Order was presumably coining it in. To make losses of that magnitude now and yet still be in good financial shape suggests very strongly that total investments are huge. And that is just one religious order. In a nutashell, if this sort of money is sloshing around in the Church, why are we faced with appeals for every Church cause under the sun? Why , for example, did the Apostleship of the Sea have to cut staff a year ago? John



PJD	Monday, 31. August 2009, 18:53 Post #2
Posts: 2,423 Group: Members Member #11 Joined: September 26, 2006	In a nutashell, if this sort of money is sloshing around in the Church, why............... Funny you should ask John; so many ask the same thing........ PJD



Mairtin	Monday, 31. August 2009, 19:10 Post #3
Posts: 1,156 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: August 16, 2008	As far as I can see, it is mainly the religious orders who have, if not hard cash "sloshing about", then very substantial property portfolios, some of them built up over centuries. The orders seem to have total autonomy in how they use this money as was illustrated following the Ryan Report when the Irish Bishops were powerless to compel the orders to increase their contribution to the victims' compensation fund.
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Rose of York	Monday, 31. August 2009, 19:22 Post #4
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Mairtin Monday, 31. August 2009, 19:10 As far as I can see, it is mainly the religious orders who have, if not hard cash "sloshing about", then very substantial property portfolios, some of them built up over centuries. Heavy losses on their investments in the economic crisis are nothing to do with property portfolios. They will be loss in the capital value of shares. I will take a look at their accounts.
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Rose of York	Monday, 31. August 2009, 19:37 Post #5
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	John Sweeney Monday, 31. August 2009, 18:29 My worry is that this news has come about only because of the losses. In happier times ie a couple of years ago, the Order was presumably coining it in. To make losses of that magnitude now and yet still be in good financial shape suggests very strongly that total investments are huge. And that is just one religious order. In a nutashell, if this sort of money is sloshing around in the Church, why are we faced with appeals for every Church cause under the sun? Why , for example, did the Apostleship of the Sea have to cut staff a year ago? Hold your fire, everybody. Looking at these accounts will take a bit of time. The bigger the organisation the more money comes in and the more goes out. The Society of Jesus is a BIG charity. Initial information before looking at the figures. 230165 - SOCIETY OF JESUS TRUST OF 1929 FOR ROMAN CATHOLIC PURPOSES PROVISION OF EDUCATION THROUGH THE RUNNING OF INDEPENDENT AND VOLUNTARY AIDED SCHOOLS AND CAMPION HALL (UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD). PROVISION OF SPIRITUAL FORMATION THROUGH THE RUNNING OF SPIRITUALITY CENTRES AND PARISHES AD HOC PROJECTS: JESUIT MEDIA INITIATIVES, JESUIT MISSIONS, JESUIT VOLUNTEERING, ADULT FORMATION, SOUTHWELL YOUTH PROJECT. PROVISION OF COMMUNITIES FOR PROFESSED MEMBERS Where it operates THROUGHOUT ENGLAND AND WALES AFGHANISTAN ALGERIA ANGOLA ANTARCTICA ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA ARGENTINA ARMENIA AUSTRALIA BAHAMAS BAHRAIN BANGLADESH BARBADOS BELIZE BENIN BHUTAN BOLIVIA BOTSWANA BRAZIL BRUNEI BURKINA FASO BURMA BURUNDI CAMBODIA CAMEROON CANADA CAPE VERDE CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC CHAD CHILE CHINA COLOMBIA COMOROS COSTA RICA CUBA DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO DJIBOUTI DOMINICA DOMINICAN REPUBLIC ECUADOR EGYPT EL SALVADOR EQUATORIAL GUINEA ERITREA ETHIOPIA FIJI GABON GAMBIA GHANA GRENADA GUATEMALA GUINEA GUINEA-BISSAU GUYANA HAITI HONDURAS INDIA INDONESIA IRAN IRAQ ISRAEL IVORY COAST JAMAICA JAPAN JORDAN KAZAKHSTAN KENYA KIRIBATI KUWAIT KYRGYZSTAN LAOS LEBANON LESOTHO LIBERIA LIBYA MADAGASCAR MALAWI MALAYSIA MALDIVES MALI MARSHALL ISLANDS MAURITANIA MAURITIUS MEXICO MICRONESIA MONGOLIA MOROCCO MOZAMBIQUE NAMIBIA NAURU NEPAL NEW ZEALAND NICARAGUA NIGER NIGERIA NORTH KOREA NORTHERN IRELAND OMAN PAKISTAN PALAU PANAMA PAPUA NEW GUINEA PARAGUAY PERU PHILIPPINES QATAR REPUBLIC OF CONGO REPUBLIC OF IRELAND RWANDA SAMOA SAO TOME AND PRINCIPE SAUDI ARABIA SCOTLAND SENEGAL SEYCHELLES SIERRA LEONE SINGAPORE SOLOMON ISLANDS SOMALIA SOUTH AFRICA SOUTH KOREA SRI LANKA ST KITTS-NEVIS ST LUCIA ST VINCENT AND GRENADINES SUDAN SURINAM SWAZILAND SYRIA TAJIKISTAN TANZANIA THAILAND TOGO TONGA TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO TUNISIA TURKEY TURKMENISTAN TUVALU UGANDA UNITED ARAB EMIRATES UNITED STATES OF AMERICA URUGUAY UZBEKISTAN VANUATU VENEZUELA VIETNAM YEMEN ZAMBIA ZIMBABWE The Jesuits run parishes and schools in the Uk and in all the above listed countries. Add to that, a university college at Oxford. This outfit is big, it needs a high income. http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/SHOWCHARITY/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?Regis
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Rose of York	Monday, 31. August 2009, 20:02 Post #6
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	If anybody wants to trawl through 50 pages of accounts they are welcome. The most recent accounts on the Charity Commission are for year ended 30 September 2008 http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/ScannedAccounts/Ends65%5C0000230165_ac_20080930_e_c.pdf Pages 11 to 20 detail the vast amount of work undertaken by the Jesuits. Further down are the figures. Having taken a cursory look (its my job) all I can say is, the Society of Jesus appears to be a very well run charity, there is no evidence of avarice. It makes sense to keep funds available to weather a recession. They also need to make provision for maintenace of properties, some of which are old and listed and would be well nigh impossible to sell on the open market. Members of the Order who are in receipt of income pledge all that money to the charity.
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John Sweeney	Monday, 31. August 2009, 21:12 Post #7
Posts: 1,853 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	If I may say so, the fact that they are a well run charity is not the point, Rose. The worry is that huge sums of money are under catholic control but not available for general church purposes. Why is this not in one central pot administered on behalf of all of us? For example , my own Archdiocese set up a fund to try and raise Ł8m over 3 years for funds to look after retired priests, catechesis and to maintain the cathedral. At the same time a religious order can make losses of Ł42m. Something is out of kilter. John



Rose of York	Monday, 31. August 2009, 21:33 Post #8
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	John it was not a loss of cash, it was a loss on the paper value of shares. Due to the banking crisis some freebie shares I own dropped in value from over Ł2000 to, at their low point, about Ł300. I still have the shares, I still receive the dividends twice a year, so I am no worse off. Every registered charity that owns stocks and shares has lost on their value. As share values recover they will record a gain, then people will say "hey, look at this, they made a fortune."
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Rose of York	Monday, 31. August 2009, 21:45 Post #9
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	John Sweeney Monday, 31. August 2009, 21:12 If I may say so, the fact that they are a well run charity is not the point, Rose. The worry is that huge sums of money are under catholic control but not available for general church purposes. Why is this not in one central pot administered on behalf of all of us? For example , my own Archdiocese set up a fund to try and raise Ł8m over 3 years for funds to look after retired priests, catechesis and to maintain the cathedral. At the same time a religious order can make losses of Ł42m. Something is out of kilter. John The Jesuits come under the control of their world wide Religious Order, not under diocesan bishops. A religious order cannot combine its funds with those of a diocese. In addition to their other work they, like your diocese, are involved in looking after retired priests, catechesis and maintainenance of churches. The Society of Jesus is involved in charitable projects overseas for the building of hospitals, schools, colleges, care homes, orphanages. Why should a well run charity hand over its money to another outfit? The chances are the Chairty Commission would not allow it. The money they have was received from various sources for the work of the Jesuits to be carried out. If I donated a sum specifically for the purpose of supporting Jesuit missions I would be annoyed if it was diverted elsewhere. You may as well say "Why doesn't the animal rescue charity in our town hand over its money to rescue kennels in another town. As for the amount of money, the bigger the outfit, the more comes in and the more goes out. One would expect a supermarket to make more than the local convenience store, and to have the potential to lose more in bad times. What matters is the percentage not the pounds. The problem is, some find it hard to accept the top people in mens and womens religious are highly trained and qualified professional people who put their talents to use in the service of others. I for one am pleased if I hear they are using good business sense. Carrying out the purpose of the Order costs money. A well run "business" will grow from strength to strength then the complaints fly. It is not unknown for diocesan trustees to be amateurs with no experience in banking, finance or business. That is cause for complaint.
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Ned	Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:19 Post #10
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	Rose of York Monday, 31. August 2009, 21:45 As for the amount of money, the bigger the outfit, the more comes in and the more goes out. One would expect a supermarket to make more than the local convenience store, and to have the potential to lose more in bad times. What matters is the percentage not the pounds. Yes, Rose, but the Society of Jesus is a multi-national corporation, and with worldwide assets likely to be worth tens or hundreds of billions of pounds. (Consider the valuation of those small Irish orders' assets.) It's the old idea of 'Mortmain'. Shouldn't the SJ be paying Corporation Tax etc. ? Regards Ned



Rose of York	Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:29 Post #11
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Ned Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:19 It's the old idea of 'Mortmain'. Shouldn't the SJ be paying Corporation Tax etc. ? If they are to be taxed so should all charities. There is no sin in an individual person, corporation or charity raising funds or in the good husbandry of properties and money, the moral issues are the methods of raising the money and the purposes for which it is used.
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Ned	Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:36 Post #12
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	Rose of York Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:29 If they are to be taxed so should all charities. There's a big distinction between those assets that are being used for the good of others and those assets that are being used otherwise.



Rose of York	Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:40 Post #13
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Ned Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:36 Rose of York Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:29 If they are to be taxed so should all charities. There's a big distinction between those assets that are being used for the good of others and those assets that are being used otherwise. OK Ned, what is the distinction in the case of the Jesuits? All the information we need is declared in the trustees and auditors reports and the accounts. The links are in posting No 5 of this discussion.
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Ned	Monday, 31. August 2009, 23:05 Post #14
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	Rose of York Monday, 31. August 2009, 22:40 what is the distinction in the case of the Jesuits? Well, look at their big Mayfair establishment - between Farm Street and Mount Street - I'd put the church is in the tax-free category, but that big Millionaires' Row residence should be a taxable asset. Edited by Ned, Monday, 31. August 2009, 23:34.



Rose of York	Monday, 31. August 2009, 23:24 Post #15
Administrator Posts: 14,559 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Ned I have not seen the establishment. For business, ownership of an asset is not taxable, ownership is not income. If ever it is sold the proceeds must go into the charitable funds and eventually be used for charitable purposes. Charities do make some contribution to the economy, in VAT, excise duty and employers' national insurance. I am not saying all religious orders are beyond reproach, like people and limited companies they will vary in their standards.
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