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Our Lady's Message for Russia; Russia's conversion
Topic Started: Sunday, 30. August 2009, 09:12 (881 Views)
Poesy
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A recent letter from Bishop Williamson.


Quote:
 
A remarkable yet possible plan of Heaven for today's world can be guessed at, if Orthodox Christianity is reviving within Russia in the manner described to me a few days ago in London by a Russian. His description corresponds to the impression brought away from Russia by an American friend visiting St Petersburg a few years ago - the average Russian has distinctly more spiritual substance in him then has the average spiritually wasted Westerner. Does this connect with Our Lady of Fatima...?

The Russian in London told me that the Orthodox Church in Russia is following rather than leading a revival of Orthodoxy amongst the people. Attendance at the Orthodox liturgy has increased by half over the last two years, and now 80% of Russians are at least calling themselves "Orthodox", i.e. believers. New parishes are springing up everywhere. Bibles are snatched up as soon as they come on sale. Religious literature is flourishing, whilst atheistic propaganda is dying. "Holy Russia" is rising from the grave in which Communism from 1917 to 1989 strove to bury it.

For when the Communist structures of the Soviet "empire of evil" (Pres. Reagan) collapsed in 1989, the Russians turned for an ideology to replace Communism not to Western Liberalism but to their national and religious roots in Russian Orthodoxy. What indeed had the decadent West had to offer to Russia's new needs in the 1990's ? In economics, the plundering of their wealth by capitalist vultures; in politics, the still on-going encirclement of their frontiers to ensure the United States' permanent global hegemony by the construction of a ring of military bases which are one, if not the real, reason for the disastrous occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan never to come to an end; in religion, the attempted push eastwards of Conciliar ecumenism, with which apparently the Russian churchmen want nothing to do - on the contrary, they are aware of the Traditional Catholic movement, and support it.

However, let us be under no illusion: Russian Orthodoxy welds together religion and patriotism in a not wholly godly mixture, and Orthodoxy is still schismatic by refusing the Papal Supremacy, and heretical by refusing a number of dogmas, so Russians do need to be converted to the truly Universal or Catholic Church. But if Our Lady of Fatima has singled out their country for the Consecration to her Heart, may it not be, not because the Russians are still wicked Communists but because the Russian people's huge sufferings from their 70 Babylonian years of Communist captivity are calling forth from the always religious depths of "Holy Russia" an upsurge of spiritual vitality which could save the true Church, presently wilting in the West, where Church Authority may still have large numbers but it has little Faith, whilst the Traditional remnant has the true Faith but little by way of numbers and less by way of Authority ? God knows how the Western Church also needs conversion !

May it then be Russia's smashing of the encirclement in a Third World War leading to its occupation of Europe, which will at last drive the Latin Pope to consecrate Russia to Our Lady's Heart, as she has so long been asking for in vain? Will at that moment the Russians' renewed religious vigor save our languishing Catholic Authority and Tradition, whose Truth will in turn cleanse their errors ? If so, then God will once again have "concluded all in unbelief, that He may have mercy on all...How incomprehensible are His judgments, and how unsearchable His ways... To Him be glory for ever" (Rom. XI, 32...36).

Catholics, mainstream and of Tradition, pray your hearts out for the Consecration of Russia to the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of the Mother of God, or "Theotokos" as she is known in the Eastern Church.

Kyrie eleison.
+Williamson


London, England

*** End***


________________



My own thoughts.
There is no doubt that there is a tremendous Christian revival going on in Russia at the moment.
What I can't work out is whether a kind of general evangelical movement, or whether it is linked to any growth in the Orthodox Church. Also , there is the issue of how this great religious revival will relate to the Church in the West. I suppose if Church attendances are on the increase in Russia, then it's a revival of the Orthodox Church. If not, is it a rise in the influence of protestant cults and sects.
My guess is that it is more inspired by the Orthodox Church and its ancient roots in Russia and the ancient faith of this great country.
If it is an Orthodox movement, what impact is this going to have on the Latin Church,and what should the approach of Rome be?
I may be wrong , but I though Russia had already been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Our Lady, a long time ago, but can someone clarify this.
I have always believed that Russia is going to lead the world in a new crusade for the faith, and the threat this poses to the New World Order is all to obvious. The political analysis that Bishop Williamson's Russian friend gave to him, is absolutely spot on - encirclement of Russia, invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan , etc.etc.

Did Our Lady's message at Fatima mean she wanted the conversion of the Orthodox Church back to Rome, and is that the meaning of the Consecration of Her Immaculate Heart to Russia ?

A lot of food for thought here.


Edited to display quotation correctly
.
Edited by Rose of York, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 10:25.
Domine Jesu, noverim me .
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Anne-Marie

Reading the first two-thirds of your post... I though t thatwas you speaking!!! :bl:
I do wish you'd put Williamson's words in quotes!

I remember back in the 70s a priests telling me one day African would bring Christianity to Britain and Europe!
Such was his opinion even then of the state of our Faith!

Yes, Russia feels encircled - and rightly so.
But Russia is also using/allowing the U.S. to do the dirty work of trying to check Islam - Russia had its own nasty experience with that in Soviet days and feels rather threatened and encircled by that, too.

Who or what will bring about the re-Christianising of Britain/Europe is something I'm not sure I actually want to be around to see! Whether 3rd World War or otherwise, it might be a very unpleasant experience. (Even the Jews had a tough time claiming the Promised Land, with rather a lot of wars, exile, slavery.)
Meanwhile, I'll just do my bit....
Anne-Marie
FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI
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Poesy
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Anne-Marie
Sunday, 30. August 2009, 09:40
Reading the first two-thirds of your post... I though t thatwas you speaking!!! :bl:
I do wish you'd put Williamson's words in quotes!

I remember back in the 70s a priests telling me one day African would bring Christianity to Britain and Europe!
Such was his opinion even then of the state of our Faith!

Yes, Russia feels encircled - and rightly so.
But Russia is also using/allowing the U.S. to do the dirty work of trying to check Islam - Russia had its own nasty experience with that in Soviet days and feels rather threatened and encircled by that, too.

Who or what will bring about the re-Christianising of Britain/Europe is something I'm not sure I actually want to be around to see! Whether 3rd World War or otherwise, it might be a very unpleasant experience. (Even the Jews had a tough time claiming the Promised Land, with rather a lot of wars, exile, slavery.)
Meanwhile, I'll just do my bit....

You could well be right on the Christianization point Anne-Marie.
Certainly, Britian in particular seems to want to choose the hard road with God, ie, chastisement, collapse, etc. rather than the easier way of repentance and prayer.
On Russia, I wonder whether it is more a case that the American's are stirriing up Islamic militants within Russia's borders, than that, Russia is trying to use America.

Sorry I didn't quote the letter properly.
Edited by Poesy, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 09:56.
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O'Ratty

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As you can guess, I have a few comments but I'll let them revolve in my head before committing them to cold print.

The "consecration of Russia" is by the blood of her Orthodox martyrs, not by the legalistic formulae of Latin bishops.

(Williamson repeats the Roman Church's reasons for regarding Orthodoxy as "schismatic" and "heretical"; it's important in the context to recognise that from the Orthodox point of view it is the Roman Church (and its dependents) which has separated itself by heresy from Unity, Catholicity and Apostolicity. I mention this not to be offensive or provocative - this is, after all, an RC forum on which I am merely a guest - but just so that we're all clear about where "the other" is coming from. There is a thread somewhere about "the Great Schism". I suggest that anyone wishing to explore Catholic/Orthodox controversy should do it there).
Edited by O'Ratty, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 14:29.
Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.
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Rose of York
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O'Ratty
Sunday, 30. August 2009, 12:57

As you can guess, I have a few comments but I'll let them revolve in my head before committing them to cold print.

The "consecration of Russia" is by the blood of her Orthodox martyrs, not by the legalistic formulae of Latin bishops.

(Williamson repeats the Roman Church's reasons for regarding Orthodoxy as "schismatic" and "heretical"; it's important in the context to recognise that from the Orthodox point of view it is the Roman Church (and its dependents) which has separated itself by heresy from Unity, Catholicity and Apostolicity. I mention this not to be offensive or provocative - this is, after all, an RC forum on which I am merely a guest - but just so that we're all clear about where "the other" is coming from. There is a thread somewhere about "the Great Schism". I suggest that anyone wishing to explore Catholic/Orthodox controversy should do it there).
O'Ratty you may believe the Latin Church separated itself by heresy from Unity, Catholicity and Apostolicity but, as you say,

Quote:
 
this is, after all, an RC forum on which I am merely a guest - but just so that we're all clear about where "the other" is coming from. There is a thread somewhere about "the Great Schism". I suggest that anyone wishing to explore Catholic/Orthodox controversy should do it there).


I find the historical information you give, about the breach between Orthodoxy and the Latin Church, interesting and informative, and I hope that any member who wishes to discuss that will do so on that thread. Do you mind finding it and adding the link to your posting, please?
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KatyA
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Here you go Ending of the Great Schism
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O'Ratty

I'm somewhat disarmed by Bishop Williamson's relatively positive attitude to Russian Orthodoxy, speaking as one who has had very little sympathy with the Bishop's own strand of traditional Catholicism (or rather, Catholic Traditionalism), which I've always thought of as too relentlessly ideological - cast habitually in terms of a kind of lurid geopolitical gnosticism. There's an equivalent strain in Russian nationalism: "I believe in Russia! I believe in her Orthodoxy!" declares the ex-revolutionary, but as-yet-unconverted Shatov in Dostoyevsky's The Devils. These are identical sentiments, mutatis mutandis, to those of unbeliever Charles Maurras and Action Francais ("I believe in France! I believe in her Catholicism!"). At this distance, in fact, I think it's also possible to see several of the 20th century's celebrated converts to Roman Catholicism in disconcertingly similar terms: from their writings one is too often left with an impression of a predominantly ideological "conversion" to a kind of culturally absorbing, intellectually rigorous, romantic and aesthetical "third way" distinct from the secular utopianisms which absorbed the attention of intellectuals and others of that era. Dostoyevsky would not have been surprised.

The Russian "version" has a long and indifferently attractive pedigree, stretching back in various guises to the fall of Constantinople, after which Moscow was considered by some of its political adherents to have assumed de facto leadership of the Orthodox Catholic ecumene: two "Romes" have fallen - Moscow is the Third and a fourth there will not be". Naturally this has played very well to that strain of pseudo-mystical nationalism to which original sin has inclined us all, to varying degrees (And did those feet, in ancient time...). Its psychology easily translated into Russian Bolshevik "presidency" of the international proletarian revolution. Today, I fear, it's being given a fresh coat of paint by Putin, and some have expressed disappointment that the Russian Church appears, in some external respects, to have returned to its pre-revolutionary condition almost as though nothing had happened.

Something has happened though, which no alteration in external circumstances can add to or subtract from: "Holy Russia" has suffered a terrible babylonian captivity, and the martyrdom of millions of her Orthodox children. It is on account of their blood and by their prayers that the re-consecration of Rus to the Holy Theotokos proceeds, heart by believing, faithful heart; and it does proceed.

"Anyone who comes to Orthodoxy looking for anything but the Lord Jesus will be disappointed" as a celebrated American convert put it recently. Anyone who wishes to discern ideological, geo-political movements in the revivification of the soul of Russia is welcome to do so; but he'll be missing the point.

Through the prayers of the Theotokos, of our mother in Christ Grand Duchess Elizabeth, of the New Martyrs and Passion Bearers of Russia, and of all our holy fathers, Lord Jesus Christ Our God have mercy on us and save us. Amen

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Edited by O'Ratty, Monday, 21. September 2009, 07:00.
Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.
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O'Ratty

Thanks, Katy & Rose. :respect:
Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.
- St. Gregory of Nyssa
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Gerard

I have a friend who is Ukranian (athiest but Christian family background) and another who is an English (Evangelical) missionary in Russia. Both tell me that the Orthodox Church lost all credibility in that country by capitulating to/with the Government throught the communist period.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Gerard
Sunday, 30. August 2009, 17:38
I have a friend who is Ukranian (athiest but Christian family background) and another who is an English (Evangelical) missionary in Russia. Both tell me that the Orthodox Church lost all credibility in that country by capitulating to/with the Government throught the communist period.

Gerry
The actions of the leaders of a church should not sway any person's beliefs.
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John Sweeney

Is this Willimason the Nazi one? In any case, what are we to believe about this great Christian wave sweeping Russia? Is it in the example of the oligarchs who ripped gargantuan personal fortunes out of privatisation? Is it in the gangsters who enforce the oligarchs' will? Is it in the ongoing vicious wars in Chechnya and other subjugated areas? Is it in the --fairly minor transgression admittedly compared with the aforementioned crimes--the relentless Orthodox persecution of Catholicism? Is it in the blatant moves to cement one party--indeed one man--domination of politics and the ripping up of a constitution designed to prevent that?

I don't think we should be looking for salvation from them or from their benighted church.


John
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O'Ratty

Gerard
Sunday, 30. August 2009, 17:38
I have a friend who is Ukranian (athiest but Christian family background) and another who is an English (Evangelical) missionary in Russia. Both tell me that the Orthodox Church lost all credibility in that country by capitulating to/with the Government throught the communist period.

Gerry
Gerry, would you rely on an an Irish atheist to provide a fair account of English Catholicism? - or an American Evangelical? Or me, for that matter? Or the large number of English Catholics I come across on the internet who are constantly expressing varying degrees of disaffection with their present hierarchy, to the extent that it seems to them to have sold out to the world, or to ecumenism or marxism or neo-protestantism or whatever?

Disaffection with leadership during a period of trial does not, as Rose correctly points out, equate to the Church losing "all credibility". My disaffected Catholic friends are alienated from their present crop of bishops, not from Catholicism! The Russian Orthodox faithful were also perfectly capable of maintaining this distinction during the period of persecution. They knew the confessors from the KGB men - of course they did. Thousands of holy priests and bishops were martyred and their memory faithfully preserved.

Please remember before rashly risking the integrity of your own glazing that the reason Guiseppe Sarto became pope in 1904 was because the Austrian Emperor vetoed the conclave's election of Cardinal Rampolla. Within its own borders, the Austrian Empire completely controlled every aspect of the Church's life , including the appointment of bishops. At one point it attempted to impose a form of deistic rationalism on them (google Josephism if you're unfamiliar with the history). It was also illegal inside the Empire to be anything other than Catholic, which is why millions of Orthodox slavs were persecuted into the Uniate schism. Those who emigrated in large numbers to the States at the beginning of the last century reverted to Orthodoxy as soon as they were able.
Edited by O'Ratty, Monday, 31. August 2009, 13:56.
Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.
- St. Gregory of Nyssa
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O'Ratty

Here, by coincidence, is very good little podcast on Patriarch St Tikhon (+1925) which I found while looking for something else. One of my favourite stories about the saint was his reaction to the news that a sewage pipe had ruptured under the recently-built Lenin mausoleum, with malodorous consequences for the Bolshevik shrine: "The myrhh accords with the relics", he observed.

Play in popup

Right-click to download mp3

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Edited by O'Ratty, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 22:05.
Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.
- St. Gregory of Nyssa
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O'Ratty

John Sweeney
Sunday, 30. August 2009, 19:17
Is this Willimason the Nazi one? In any case, what are we to believe about this great Christian wave sweeping Russia? Is it in the example of the oligarchs who ripped gargantuan personal fortunes out of privatisation? Is it in the gangsters who enforce the oligarchs' will? Is it in the ongoing vicious wars in Chechnya and other subjugated areas? Is it in the --fairly minor transgression admittedly compared with the aforementioned crimes--the relentless Orthodox persecution of Catholicism? Is it in the blatant moves to cement one party--indeed one man--domination of politics and the ripping up of a constitution designed to prevent that?
Erm - as I think I mentioned above, at some length - no.
Edited by O'Ratty, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 22:38.
Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.
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Rose of York
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John Sweeney
Sunday, 30. August 2009, 19:17
Is this Willimason the Nazi one? In any case, what are we to believe about this great Christian wave sweeping Russia? Is it in the example of the oligarchs who ripped gargantuan personal fortunes out of privatisation? Is it in the gangsters who enforce the oligarchs' will? Is it in the ongoing vicious wars in Chechnya and other subjugated areas? Is it in the --fairly minor transgression admittedly compared with the aforementioned crimes--the relentless Orthodox persecution of Catholicism? Is it in the blatant moves to cement one party--indeed one man--domination of politics and the ripping up of a constitution designed to prevent that?

I don't think we should be looking for salvation from them or from their benighted church.


John
It is most likely similar to the resurgence of Catholicism in England and Wales in the mid nineteenth cenury. The chances are that millions of mothers and fathers secretly handed down faith in Christ, to their children, praying at home when they were forbidden to openly practice their faith.

Didn't the former President Gorbachev say his mother retained her Christian faith?
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