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| Our Lady's Message for Russia; Russia's conversion | |
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| Topic Started: Sunday, 30. August 2009, 09:12 (881 Views) | |
| Poesy | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 09:12 Post #1 |
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A recent letter from Bishop Williamson.
________________ My own thoughts. There is no doubt that there is a tremendous Christian revival going on in Russia at the moment. What I can't work out is whether a kind of general evangelical movement, or whether it is linked to any growth in the Orthodox Church. Also , there is the issue of how this great religious revival will relate to the Church in the West. I suppose if Church attendances are on the increase in Russia, then it's a revival of the Orthodox Church. If not, is it a rise in the influence of protestant cults and sects. My guess is that it is more inspired by the Orthodox Church and its ancient roots in Russia and the ancient faith of this great country. If it is an Orthodox movement, what impact is this going to have on the Latin Church,and what should the approach of Rome be? I may be wrong , but I though Russia had already been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Our Lady, a long time ago, but can someone clarify this. I have always believed that Russia is going to lead the world in a new crusade for the faith, and the threat this poses to the New World Order is all to obvious. The political analysis that Bishop Williamson's Russian friend gave to him, is absolutely spot on - encirclement of Russia, invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan , etc.etc. Did Our Lady's message at Fatima mean she wanted the conversion of the Orthodox Church back to Rome, and is that the meaning of the Consecration of Her Immaculate Heart to Russia ? A lot of food for thought here. Edited to display quotation correctly . Edited by Rose of York, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 10:25.
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| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Anne-Marie | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 09:40 Post #2 |
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Reading the first two-thirds of your post... I though t thatwas you speaking!!! I do wish you'd put Williamson's words in quotes! I remember back in the 70s a priests telling me one day African would bring Christianity to Britain and Europe! Such was his opinion even then of the state of our Faith! Yes, Russia feels encircled - and rightly so. But Russia is also using/allowing the U.S. to do the dirty work of trying to check Islam - Russia had its own nasty experience with that in Soviet days and feels rather threatened and encircled by that, too. Who or what will bring about the re-Christianising of Britain/Europe is something I'm not sure I actually want to be around to see! Whether 3rd World War or otherwise, it might be a very unpleasant experience. (Even the Jews had a tough time claiming the Promised Land, with rather a lot of wars, exile, slavery.) Meanwhile, I'll just do my bit.... |
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Anne-Marie FIAT VOLUNTAS DEI | |
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| Poesy | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 09:54 Post #3 |
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You could well be right on the Christianization point Anne-Marie. Certainly, Britian in particular seems to want to choose the hard road with God, ie, chastisement, collapse, etc. rather than the easier way of repentance and prayer. On Russia, I wonder whether it is more a case that the American's are stirriing up Islamic militants within Russia's borders, than that, Russia is trying to use America. Sorry I didn't quote the letter properly. Edited by Poesy, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 09:56.
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| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| O'Ratty | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 12:57 Post #4 |
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![]() Holy Russia by Mikhail Nesterov As you can guess, I have a few comments but I'll let them revolve in my head before committing them to cold print. The "consecration of Russia" is by the blood of her Orthodox martyrs, not by the legalistic formulae of Latin bishops. (Williamson repeats the Roman Church's reasons for regarding Orthodoxy as "schismatic" and "heretical"; it's important in the context to recognise that from the Orthodox point of view it is the Roman Church (and its dependents) which has separated itself by heresy from Unity, Catholicity and Apostolicity. I mention this not to be offensive or provocative - this is, after all, an RC forum on which I am merely a guest - but just so that we're all clear about where "the other" is coming from. There is a thread somewhere about "the Great Schism". I suggest that anyone wishing to explore Catholic/Orthodox controversy should do it there). Edited by O'Ratty, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 14:29.
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Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything. - St. Gregory of Nyssa | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 14:46 Post #5 |
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O'Ratty you may believe the Latin Church separated itself by heresy from Unity, Catholicity and Apostolicity but, as you say,
I find the historical information you give, about the breach between Orthodoxy and the Latin Church, interesting and informative, and I hope that any member who wishes to discuss that will do so on that thread. Do you mind finding it and adding the link to your posting, please? |
![]() ![]() Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| KatyA | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 15:00 Post #6 |
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Here you go Ending of the Great Schism |
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| O'Ratty | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 15:29 Post #7 |
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I'm somewhat disarmed by Bishop Williamson's relatively positive attitude to Russian Orthodoxy, speaking as one who has had very little sympathy with the Bishop's own strand of traditional Catholicism (or rather, Catholic Traditionalism), which I've always thought of as too relentlessly ideological - cast habitually in terms of a kind of lurid geopolitical gnosticism. There's an equivalent strain in Russian nationalism: "I believe in Russia! I believe in her Orthodoxy!" declares the ex-revolutionary, but as-yet-unconverted Shatov in Dostoyevsky's The Devils. These are identical sentiments, mutatis mutandis, to those of unbeliever Charles Maurras and Action Francais ("I believe in France! I believe in her Catholicism!"). At this distance, in fact, I think it's also possible to see several of the 20th century's celebrated converts to Roman Catholicism in disconcertingly similar terms: from their writings one is too often left with an impression of a predominantly ideological "conversion" to a kind of culturally absorbing, intellectually rigorous, romantic and aesthetical "third way" distinct from the secular utopianisms which absorbed the attention of intellectuals and others of that era. Dostoyevsky would not have been surprised. The Russian "version" has a long and indifferently attractive pedigree, stretching back in various guises to the fall of Constantinople, after which Moscow was considered by some of its political adherents to have assumed de facto leadership of the Orthodox Catholic ecumene: two "Romes" have fallen - Moscow is the Third and a fourth there will not be". Naturally this has played very well to that strain of pseudo-mystical nationalism to which original sin has inclined us all, to varying degrees (And did those feet, in ancient time...). Its psychology easily translated into Russian Bolshevik "presidency" of the international proletarian revolution. Today, I fear, it's being given a fresh coat of paint by Putin, and some have expressed disappointment that the Russian Church appears, in some external respects, to have returned to its pre-revolutionary condition almost as though nothing had happened. Something has happened though, which no alteration in external circumstances can add to or subtract from: "Holy Russia" has suffered a terrible babylonian captivity, and the martyrdom of millions of her Orthodox children. It is on account of their blood and by their prayers that the re-consecration of Rus to the Holy Theotokos proceeds, heart by believing, faithful heart; and it does proceed. "Anyone who comes to Orthodoxy looking for anything but the Lord Jesus will be disappointed" as a celebrated American convert put it recently. Anyone who wishes to discern ideological, geo-political movements in the revivification of the soul of Russia is welcome to do so; but he'll be missing the point. Through the prayers of the Theotokos, of our mother in Christ Grand Duchess Elizabeth, of the New Martyrs and Passion Bearers of Russia, and of all our holy fathers, Lord Jesus Christ Our God have mercy on us and save us. Amen
Edited by O'Ratty, Monday, 21. September 2009, 07:00.
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Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything. - St. Gregory of Nyssa | |
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| O'Ratty | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 15:31 Post #8 |
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Thanks, Katy & Rose.
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Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything. - St. Gregory of Nyssa | |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 17:38 Post #9 |
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I have a friend who is Ukranian (athiest but Christian family background) and another who is an English (Evangelical) missionary in Russia. Both tell me that the Orthodox Church lost all credibility in that country by capitulating to/with the Government throught the communist period. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 18:20 Post #10 |
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The actions of the leaders of a church should not sway any person's beliefs. |
![]() ![]() Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| John Sweeney | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 19:17 Post #11 |
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Is this Willimason the Nazi one? In any case, what are we to believe about this great Christian wave sweeping Russia? Is it in the example of the oligarchs who ripped gargantuan personal fortunes out of privatisation? Is it in the gangsters who enforce the oligarchs' will? Is it in the ongoing vicious wars in Chechnya and other subjugated areas? Is it in the --fairly minor transgression admittedly compared with the aforementioned crimes--the relentless Orthodox persecution of Catholicism? Is it in the blatant moves to cement one party--indeed one man--domination of politics and the ripping up of a constitution designed to prevent that? I don't think we should be looking for salvation from them or from their benighted church. John |
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| O'Ratty | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 21:41 Post #12 |
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Gerry, would you rely on an an Irish atheist to provide a fair account of English Catholicism? - or an American Evangelical? Or me, for that matter? Or the large number of English Catholics I come across on the internet who are constantly expressing varying degrees of disaffection with their present hierarchy, to the extent that it seems to them to have sold out to the world, or to ecumenism or marxism or neo-protestantism or whatever? Disaffection with leadership during a period of trial does not, as Rose correctly points out, equate to the Church losing "all credibility". My disaffected Catholic friends are alienated from their present crop of bishops, not from Catholicism! The Russian Orthodox faithful were also perfectly capable of maintaining this distinction during the period of persecution. They knew the confessors from the KGB men - of course they did. Thousands of holy priests and bishops were martyred and their memory faithfully preserved. Please remember before rashly risking the integrity of your own glazing that the reason Guiseppe Sarto became pope in 1904 was because the Austrian Emperor vetoed the conclave's election of Cardinal Rampolla. Within its own borders, the Austrian Empire completely controlled every aspect of the Church's life , including the appointment of bishops. At one point it attempted to impose a form of deistic rationalism on them (google Josephism if you're unfamiliar with the history). It was also illegal inside the Empire to be anything other than Catholic, which is why millions of Orthodox slavs were persecuted into the Uniate schism. Those who emigrated in large numbers to the States at the beginning of the last century reverted to Orthodoxy as soon as they were able. Edited by O'Ratty, Monday, 31. August 2009, 13:56.
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Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything. - St. Gregory of Nyssa | |
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| O'Ratty | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 22:02 Post #13 |
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Here, by coincidence, is very good little podcast on Patriarch St Tikhon (+1925) which I found while looking for something else. One of my favourite stories about the saint was his reaction to the news that a sewage pipe had ruptured under the recently-built Lenin mausoleum, with malodorous consequences for the Bolshevik shrine: "The myrhh accords with the relics", he observed. Play in popup Right-click to download mp3
Edited by O'Ratty, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 22:05.
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Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything. - St. Gregory of Nyssa | |
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| O'Ratty | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 22:06 Post #14 |
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Erm - as I think I mentioned above, at some length - no. Edited by O'Ratty, Sunday, 30. August 2009, 22:38.
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Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything. - St. Gregory of Nyssa | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 30. August 2009, 22:19 Post #15 |
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It is most likely similar to the resurgence of Catholicism in England and Wales in the mid nineteenth cenury. The chances are that millions of mothers and fathers secretly handed down faith in Christ, to their children, praying at home when they were forbidden to openly practice their faith. Didn't the former President Gorbachev say his mother retained her Christian faith? |
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4:38 PM Nov 23