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| Doubts and questions | |
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| Topic Started: Monday, 10. August 2009, 21:57 (1,091 Views) | |
| OsullivanB | Monday, 10. August 2009, 21:57 Post #1 |
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QV raises an issue which has troubled me in the past, and which I think may be worth exploring in its own thread. I will kick off with a real life example which is not about HV! I was a recurrent contributor to the thread about difficult passages in the Bible, asking specifically for contributions from others about Joshua and about Samson. I hesitated before doing so for the sort of reason that QV draws attention to. There is a sometimes very fine line between saying "I need help with this. Please help me to understand" and "This seems to be wrong." or perhaps stronger words. I tried not to cross that line, but may not have succeded. Much more important I gave some other forumites the impression that I was doubting or even rejecting the value of those parts of the Scripture. I don't think I was doing that but I was certainly having (and still have) difficulty in identifying the value. But I can see the danger that by voiciing what dound like doubts I might sow or water the seed of doubt in a listener. I don't think I can claim great chunks of my pp's time to resolve this issue (and others that will doubtless arise in other contexts). He isn't my private chaplain. So I bring such questions here. I think my doubts and questions are safe here, though, of course, I do not know who reads these posts. I wouldn't express my concerns to (say) a neighbour who was undergoing instruction. So I think QV and Rose both have valuable insights, and would be very interested to read what others have to say about this. Edited by OsullivanB, Monday, 10. August 2009, 21:59.
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| John Sweeney | Monday, 10. August 2009, 22:04 Post #2 |
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Good points, OSB, and a good topic. To me QV's points are wrong. If a belief is worthwhile having then it will survive a few doubts. Indeed I think it is the duty of us as Catholics to shout any doubts from the rooftops to alert our fellow Catholics of our concerns. In that way discussion takes place and changes can occur, and have occurred. It is a craven worthless faith that tries to hide behind a policy of " no public dissent". Fortunately, true Catholicism is not like that. And talk of " the Evil One"? Do me a favour! John |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 10. August 2009, 22:37 Post #3 |
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Why shout them, John, instead of just talking them over? It is not our job to decide upon what is and what is not the Truth (with a capital T). I am not clear what changes in teaching have occured, Limbo is sometimes given as an example, but there was no definitive teaching on Limbo. |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 10. August 2009, 22:41 Post #4 |
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If a forum is run like a lecture hall or a pulpit where can one go to talk over one's doubts? What do we do when a person comes on here and says "I have studied St John's Gospel and the Catechism and I just cannot see where it is proven that bread and wine turn into the Body and Blood of Jesus." Should we listen? Should we talk it over? It may be that the person has tried to talk to other Catholics, and been told "you have to believe it" but given no guidance. My husband is a convert, at one time he was cautious about saying anything about doctrine, on Catholic premises, having been insulted with "you're a funny kind of Catholic" - all because he did not understand something. On separate occasions, one priest said it and a couple of lay people (terribly terribly superior with their faith). He learned to ask me for guidance, quietly and privately. What would have happened if he had not been married to a Catholic? |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| JRJ | Tuesday, 11. August 2009, 00:05 Post #5 |
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This is a favorite topic of mine! The Faith can take questions. I haven't come up with one - and I was the bane of our RCIA catechists for four long years  - that the Church, through Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium could not answer. I think QV is correct in that we must respect and protect the Faith and try to express our doubts and concerns in such a way that a vulnerable Catholic or potential convert does not see us ridiculing or slighting the Faith. But it would be a weak faith indeed that could not address doubts. The internet is a great tool for finding answers, with Scripture, the Catechism and all sorts of encyclicals, books, etc. available online for free. |
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Jennifer hubby's dinosaur blog | |
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| John Sweeney | Tuesday, 11. August 2009, 12:32 Post #6 |
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JRJ, it seems to me that the Church acknowledges quite clearly that it does not know the answers to all questions about the Faith. Very often we are told that such and such is a Mystery but we believe it to true. Indeed , the Rosary is denominated in Mysteries. Here are a couple of others which I have never heard clearly explained by the Church although we all believe in them. 1. Why did an Almighty God decide to go through the whole convoluted route of sending Our Lord to earth to die for our sins? Why not something simpler 2. The Trinity 3. Transubstantiation as mentioned by Rose. These are just examples--I am not expecting you to come up with answers! There is enough there I think to illustrate the lack of definitive answers on key questions and therefore to justify discussion and argument on the Faith in a Catholic forum. I don't think we should duck them because of some imaginary doubtful person being swayed into unbelief by the discussion. John |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 11. August 2009, 12:48 Post #7 |
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I don't have the answer to 1. But God had been trying other ways for over 4,000 years* before the Incarnation. *Using Ussher's dating for the sake of finding a period. It was on any view a very long time. |
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| John Sweeney | Tuesday, 11. August 2009, 13:07 Post #8 |
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OSB, I think I am about to break my own "rule" from previous posting and discuss an individual example! But the mystery to me is why Almighty God had to "try" things at all. Why not just make whatever he wanted to happen, happen without all the mucking about if I can put it that way? John |
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| OsullivanB | Tuesday, 11. August 2009, 13:18 Post #9 |
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Only God knows why He made anything in the first place. It all seems to have been a great deal more trouble than it's worth, for everybody. But I'm very grateful that He did. I have learned that for me some of these questions are best avoided. There are no answers, and they insidiously undermine my belief. |
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| JRJ | Tuesday, 11. August 2009, 13:50 Post #10 |
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John - I agree completely. No need to duck any question, just a need to be attentive to the needs of others. Being prudent and circumspect doesn't keep you from asking questions. Your examples are among the toughest ones! For what it's worth, these are my reflections to date: I think God's gift of a free will to each human person has something to do with God becoming incarnate and sacrificing Himself for our salvation, though I can't put it into words just yet - I do know I need salvation. As for the Holy Trinity and transubstantiation, these are BIG mysteries. I rely on my experience of receiving the Blessed Sacrament - I know it strengthens me and see that it is a giving of God Himself in a most humble way, a level of love I do not comprehend. I see the Holy Trinity reflected in family and community life. |
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Jennifer hubby's dinosaur blog | |
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| James | Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 11:04 Post #11 |
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Part of PLD,s post in a recent HV thread re. long time no post from me and perhaps of some import here. [James; as a matter of interest - long time - care to say why so?] -------------------------------------------------------------- This is difficult to answer in one sense as a lot of the discussion is not beyond my understanding. Some posts can be very verbose and vague, in what can be said in one line - but it's not that either. Some MAY be undermining without intent - just looking at the alternatives - the cut and thrust of argument !!. I have also noticed that many who posted in the past drop away, but perhaps that is due to other reasons. Personally, I come to this emotional "feeling" every now and again and "feel" that this is not for me. At church, as one example, it is real in the sense that it is live and most of the senses are at work People are live and I "feel" "yes this is more for me". A certain simplicity, perhaps, that can fill you, despite contradictions or analysing what or why. Bringing "back copies" of "Irelands Own" magazine to the old lady in the back row who takes great delight in how much she enjoys the read - type of experience . Not as intellectual in a sense, but we always get something from a homily to think about for a while. So, I need to get back there and give this cyber stuff a break We can pass on the street and not know each other!! That's about the best answer I can give and I put it in this thread as it may be related. Edited by James, Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 19:51.
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| PJD | Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 13:51 Post #12 |
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"This is difficult to answer in one sense as a lot of the discussion is not beyond my understanding." That was very obvious James on the biblical threads, where your contributions showed a certain expertise in such matter. Perhaps at that time you should have spread your wings a little. "but it's not that either." " True one gets fed up sometimes with discussions; most of which are basically critical in one form or another - nature of argument I suppose - nothing wrong with it otherwise we wouldn't have film and book critics for example. "So, I need to get back there and give this cyber stuff a break We can pass on the street and not know each other!!" In a certain sense you could say that those two sentences reflect the same thing. Just my thoughts James PJD Edited by PJD, Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 13:52.
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| James | Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 19:50 Post #13 |
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Thanks PJD. I have not gone away to another faith as you are no doubt aware. It is just getting perspective in the present world and reconciling with modern technology etc. and the simple insights of people with no specific argumentative skills. They do come out with these "one liners" that can cut right through everything of intellectual argument. !! Problem is, you will not hear from them on forums. Intelligence can shine through even the most uneducated and they are not fooled by rhetoric - never have been. I am forever amazed and hence the reason for withdrawals of an emotional nature. So, undermining the lay person in the pew may not be as easy or destructive as some may think. I don't know if anyone else gets these feelings with prolonged internet exposure . James Edited by James, Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 19:55.
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| CARLO | Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 20:41 Post #14 |
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Lay people in the pew are unlikely to be undermined by internet chat or theological debate or lengthy discussions on the Faith between those who enjoy such things. Why is this? Here are some reasons: 1. They don't understand these matters 2. They are bored by such talk 3. They connect with their Faith as much on an emotional and instinctive level as on a reasoned or theological basis 4. They are too busy to bother 5. They regard those who engage in such debate as the sort of people one would not wish to ask home to tea! I hasten to add that this does not make lay people in the pew ignoramuses or imbeciles - however it is naive in the extreme to imagine that religion for the masses is something likely to be seriously affected by intellectual debate. Oremus CARLO Edited by CARLO, Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 20:46.
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| Judica me Deus | |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 12. August 2009, 20:51 Post #15 |
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Is ignoramii the plural of ignoramus, or am I being naive? 
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