All life sacred?

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All life sacred?; Catholic approach to this
Topic Started: Saturday, 4. July 2009, 19:58 (772 Views)
Mairtin	Sunday, 5. July 2009, 21:20 Post #16
Posts: 1,156 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: August 16, 2008	Penfold Sunday, 5. July 2009, 17:11 All Human life is sacred because it comes from God and humans are the temple of the Holy Spirit and possess an immortal soul, which is formed at the moment of conception .... This teaching of the church is found in the writings of such scholars as St Thomas Aquinas ... That is not entirely accurate, Penfold, St Aquinas along with Augustine and St. Jerome thought that ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weeks after conception and did not regard abortion up to that point as being murder. His view was confirmed by the Council of Vienne in 1311 Their thinking was obviously affected by the lack of scientific knowledge at that time about foetal development; this is an area where advances in scientific knowledge over the centuries have directly contributed to the development of Church teaching. Edit 'eight to ten weights' changed to 'eight to ten weeks'; even that may not be semantically correct - St Aquinas thought that ensoulment took place after 40 days. Edited by Mairtin, Monday, 6. July 2009, 09:10.
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KatyA	Sunday, 5. July 2009, 23:41 Post #17
Administrator Posts: 5,414 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	I should be interested to knoe what the Council of Vienna said to contradict the views of Saints Basil the Great and Augustine, as quoted by Penfold. Such a contradiction seems to be opposed to the quote from Jeremiah Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)



Rose of York	Monday, 6. July 2009, 01:01 Post #18
Administrator Posts: 14,558 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	KatyA This may give you the answer http://www.ewtn.org/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=524073&language=en
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Deleted User	Monday, 6. July 2009, 01:31 Post #19
Deleted User	Mairtin You have excelled youself: 1. As any one can see there was quite a bit left out of your ref to my post which referred directly to St Thomas's teaching on the soul namely that it evolves independently of the body. 2.. I quoted St Augustine's position on abortion but just to be clear here is another reference Quote: SAINT AUGUSTINE of HIPPO (354-430 AD) "Sometimes their sadistic licentiousness goes so far...they find one means or another to destroy the unborn and flush it from the mother's womb." (The City of God, Book One, Chapter 16) 3. St Jerome you claim allowed abortion well think again: Quote: St. Jerome (c. 340-420), Letter to Eustochium, 22.13. �Some virgins [unmarried women], when they learn they are with child through sin, practice abortion by the use of drugs. Frequently they die themselves and are brought before the ruler of the lower world guilty of three crimes; suicide, adultery against Christ and murder of an unborn child.� 4. St Thomas Aquinas. well lets see what the Vatican has to say. Quote: SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION Excellent authors allowed for this first period more lenient case solutions which they rejected for following periods. But it was never denied at that time that procured abortion, even during the first days, was objectively grave fault. This condemnation was in fact unanimous. Among the many documents it is sufficient to recall certain ones. The first Council of Mainz in 847 reconsidered the penalties against abortion which had been established by preceding Councils. It decided that the most rigorous penance would be imposed "on women who procure the elimination of the fruit conceived in their womb."[9] The Decree of Gratian reported the following words of Pope Stephen V: "That person is a murderer who causes to perish by abortion what has been conceived."[10] St. Thomas, the Common Doctor of the Church, teaches that abortion is a grave sin against the natural law." At the time of the Renaissance Pope Sixtus V condemned abortion with the greatest severity.[12] A century later, Innocent XI rejected the propositions of certain lax canonists who sought to excuse an abortion procured before the moment accepted by some as the moment of the spiritual animation of the new being. Given in Rome, at the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on November 18, the Commemoration of the Dedication of the Basilicas of Saints Peter and Paul, in the year 1974. 5 Quote: In the fourth century the Council of Eliberis decreed Holy Communion should be refused all the rest of her life, even on her deathbed, to an adulteress who procured the abortion of her child. 6. Quote: Biblical sources authorize us to view man as a personal unity and at the same time as a duality of soul and body. This concept has found expression in the Church's entire Tradition and teaching. This teaching has assimilated not only the biblical sources, but also their theological interpretations, which have been given by developing the analyses conducted by certain schools of Greek philosophy (such as that of Aristotle). It has been a slow, constant work of reflection. Under the influence of St. Thomas Aquinas, it culminated principally in the pronouncements of the Council of Vienne (1312), which calls the soul the "form" of the body: forma corporis humani per se et essentialiter (DS 902). As a factor determining the substance of the being "man," the "form" is of a spiritual nature. This spiritual "form," the soul, is immortal. Later, the Fifth Lateran Council (1513) authoritatively stated this—the soul is immortal, in contrast with the body which is subject to death (cf. DS 1440). The Thomistic school emphasizes at the same time that, by virtue of the substantial union of body and soul, the soul, even after death, does not cease to "aspire" to be reunited with the body. This is confirmed by the revealed truth about the resurrection of the body. Man Is a Spiritual and Corporeal Being General Audience — April 16, 1986 It should be noted that the primary function of the council of Vienne was to suppress the Knights Templar and regulate the Franciscans and the life of mons and secular clergy. No record in the Vatican archives makes reference to it supporting abortion at any phase of pregnancy. 7. One of the earliest church documents, the Didache 140 AD states. Quote: You shall not procure an abortion, nor destroy a new born child. 8. Quote: The Quinsext Council, (or the Council in Trullo), 692 CANON XCI. THOSE who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder. NOTES. ANCIENT EPITOME OF CANON XCI. Whoever gives or receives medicine to produce abortion is a homicide, See Canon XXI. of Ancyra, and Canon II. of St. Basil; to wit, "She who purposely destroys the foetus, shall suffer the punishment of murder. And we pay no attention to the subtile distinction as to whether the foetus was formed or unformed. And by this not only is justice satisfied for the child that should have been born, but also for her who prepared for herself the snares, since the women very often die who make such experiments." � I have made an extensive search of the Vatican website and reference works on the teachings of the Fathers of the church, and I can find not one source that supports your position that the church permitted abortion at any time in its existence. Since the earliest time the church had condemned abortion, The Council of Trullo in 692 AD is precice in the matter of early abotions, and whether or not he child is formed so is it likely that a saintly monk and scholar such as St Thomas would have reversed this ruling? Given the importance of the subject in the modern world, it was one area of study we could not ignore at seminary. Dealing with young service personnel sexual ethics is a key part of my daily life. I am not an expert however I suggest that before you accuse me of error you make very sure that you are on firm ground. I accept your error is the result of folly rather than malice but I have warned you before about checking your sources. The internet has many sites that purport to be Christen and many of us can be fooled into thinking them authentic so you are not alone. There has been a lot of duff gen and misrepresentation of St Thomas and others by the pro-abortion lobby and you fell into their trap. The writings of St Thomas Aquinas are very complex and need to be studied with care for his use of language and the translations of his work require careful study.
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Deleted User	Monday, 6. July 2009, 07:13 Post #20
Deleted User	Rose of York Monday, 6. July 2009, 01:01 KatyA This may give you the answer http://www.ewtn.org/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=524073&language=en Thank you Rose this helps explain some of the confusion. There are people who deliberately seek to distort the truth for their own ends Roger Pearson's book, "Shockley on Eugenics and Race would appear to be another example. We all need to be careful, as some are more plausible than others are and we can all be fooled occasionally. The sooner there is a standard of church governance for web sites whereby reputable sites can be given a seal of approval the better. We know Dan Brown was is a fictional writer but it is amaising how many people believe that his books give an insight into a real conspiracy within the church.
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Mairtin	Monday, 6. July 2009, 08:06 Post #21
Posts: 1,156 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: August 16, 2008	Penfold Monday, 6. July 2009, 01:31 I have made an extensive search of the Vatican website and reference works on the teachings of the Fathers of the church, and I can find not one source that supports your position that the church permitted abortion at any time in its existence. You would have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you had bothered to read what I actually wrote instead of going on one of your personalised rants. Please point out where I said that St Jerome allowed abortion and where I said that the Church ever permitted or supported abortion, or else withdraw those scurrilous accusations. I simply corrected the suggestion in your post that St. Thomas supported the idea that the soul is formed at the moment of conception and that that has always been the view of the Church. You accuse me of "folly" arising from using unreliable sources and then turn around and welcome an EWTN link given by Rose that explicitly supports what I said - "while St. Thomas, relying on the biology of Aristotle, thought that the soul was not infused into the body until 40 days after conception, he always taught that abortion was a grave evil." and that "It is true that in the Middle Ages, when the opinion was generally held that the spiritual soul was not present until after the first few weeks, a distinction was made in the evaluation of the sin and the gravity of the penal sanctions. In resolving cases, approved authors were more lenient with regard to that early stage than with regard to later stages."
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Deleted User	Monday, 6. July 2009, 08:16 Post #22
Deleted User	Mairtin Sunday, 5. July 2009, 21:20 Penfold Sunday, 5. July 2009, 17:11 All Human life is sacred because it comes from God and humans are the temple of the Holy Spirit and possess an immortal soul, which is formed at the moment of conception .... This teaching of the church is found in the writings of such scholars as St Thomas Aquinas ... That is not entirely accurate, Penfold, St Aquinas along with Augustine and St. Jerome thought that ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weights after conception and did not regard abortion up to that point as being murder. His view was confirmed by the Council of Vienne in 1311 Their thinking was obviously affected by the lack of scientific knowledge at that time about foetal development; this is an area where advances in scientific knowledge over the centuries have directly contributed to the development of Church teaching. St Aquinas along with Augustine and St. Jerome thought that ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weights after conception and did not regard abortion up to that point as being murder. His view was confirmed by the Council of Vienne in 1311 Your word Mairtin not mine perhaps you should read what you write.
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PJD	Monday, 6. July 2009, 08:42 Post #23
Posts: 2,423 Group: Members Member #11 Joined: September 26, 2006	Penfold: Thank you especially, and others, for all on this page which I have copied onto my computor files. Very interesting and informative. PJD



Mairtin	Monday, 6. July 2009, 08:53 Post #24
Posts: 1,156 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: August 16, 2008	Penfold Monday, 6. July 2009, 08:16 Your word Mairtin not mine perhaps you should read what you write. And again, I have to ask you, where did I say that the Church in general or St. Jerome in particular, permitted or supported abortion? I have told you that I regard that as a scurrilous accusation, I think it is reasonable to ask you to either back it up or withdraw it. Edited by Mairtin, Monday, 6. July 2009, 08:55.
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Mairtin	Monday, 6. July 2009, 09:09 Post #25
Posts: 1,156 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: August 16, 2008	Penfold Monday, 6. July 2009, 08:16 Mairtin Sunday, 5. July 2009, 21:20 .... St Aquinas along with Augustine and St. Jerome thought that ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weights after conception Just a note that I have edited the original post to correct a typo by changing 'eight to ten weights' to 'eight to ten weeks' and noting that even that may not be semantically correct - St Aquinas thought that ensoulment took place after 40 days.
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Deleted User	Monday, 6. July 2009, 10:04 Post #26
Deleted User	Mairtin Monday, 6. July 2009, 08:06 You accuse me of "folly" arising from using unreliable sources and then turn around and welcome an EWTN link given by Rose that explicitly supports what I said - "while St. Thomas, relying on the biology of Aristotle, thought that the soul was not infused into the body until 40 days after conception, he always taught that abortion was a grave evil." and that "It is true that in the Middle Ages, when the opinion was generally held that the spiritual soul was not present until after the first few weeks, a distinction was made in the evaluation of the sin and the gravity of the penal sanctions. In resolving cases, approved authors were more lenient with regard to that early stage than with regard to later stages." The article posted by Rose. also address the remark you made referring to ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weights after conception and did not regard abortion up to that point as being murder. Further I did not say that St Thomas said the soul entered the body at conception but that the church taught this and that All Human life is sacred because it comes from God and humans are the temple of the Holy Spirit and possess an immortal soul, which is formed at the moment of conception as a gift from God independently of genetic or evolutionary influences. In other words one may share certain physical characteristics with your parents and siblings but your soul is unique. This teaching of the church is found in the writings of such scholars as St Thomas Aquinas St Thomas was only an example of the scholars and I had already quoted from St Jerrome and St Basil. A careful reading of St Thomas will also reveal that the Soul is the Form of the Body and the body cannot exist without the form. This may indicate that while St Thomas debated the nature of the soul and its formation he does not in Q76 of the Prima Pars of the Summa deny the existence of the soul in the foetus at conception but rather suggests that Quote: We must assert that the intellect which is the principle of intellectual operation is the form of the human body. For that whereby primarily anything acts is a form of the thing to which the act is to be attributed: for instance, that whereby a body is primarily healed is health, and that whereby the soul knows primarily is knowledge; hence health is a form of the body, and knowledge is a form of the soul. The reason is because nothing acts except so far as it is in act; wherefore a thing acts by that whereby it is in act. Now it is clear that the first thing by which the body lives is the soul. And as life appears through various operations in different degrees of living things, that whereby we primarily perform each of all these vital actions is the soul. For the soul is the primary principle of our nourishment, sensation, and local movement; and likewise of our understanding. Therefore this principle by which we primarily understand, whether it be called the intellect or the intellectual soul, is the form of the body. This is the demonstration used by Aristotle (De Anima ii, 2). Question 76. The union of body and soul Further in the earlier Q75 St Thomas writes. Quote: Reply to Objection 1. Solomon reasons thus in the person of the foolish, as expressed in the words of Wisdom 2. Therefore the saying that man and animals have a like beginning in generation is true of the body; for all animals alike are made of earth. But it is not true of the soul. For the souls of brutes are produced by some power of the body; whereas the human soul is produced by God. To signify this it is written as to other animals: "Let the earth bring forth the living soul" (Genesis 1:24): while of man it is written (Genesis 2:7) that "He breathed into his face the breath of life." And so in Ecclesiastes 12:7 it is concluded: "(Before) the dust return into its earth from whence it was; and the spirit return to God Who gave it." Again the process of life is alike as to the body, concerning which it is written (Ecclesiastes 3:19): "All things breathe alike," and (Wisdom 2:2), "The breath in our nostrils is smoke." But the process is not alike of the soul; for man is intelligent, whereas animals are not. Hence it is false to say: "Man has nothing more than beasts." Thus death comes to both alike as to the body, by not as to the soul.Question 75. Man who is composed of a spiritual and a corporeal substance: and in the first place, concerning what belongs to the essence of the soul Quote: Reply to Objection 4. In perfect animals, generated by coition, the active force is in the semen of the male, as the Philosopher says (De Gener. Animal. ii, 3); but the foetal matter is provided by the female. In this matter, the vegetative soul exists from the very beginning, not as to the second act, but as to the first act, as the sensitive soul is in one who sleeps. But as soon as it begins to attract nourishment, then it already operates in act. This matter therefore is transmuted by the power which is in the semen of the male, until it is actually informed by the sensitive soul; not as though the force itself which was in the semen becomes the sensitive soul; for thus, indeed, the generator and generated would be identical; moreover, this would be more like nourishment and growth than generation, as the Philosopher says. And after the sensitive soul, by the power of the active principle in the semen, has been produced in one of the principal parts of the thing generated, then it is that the sensitive soul of the offspring begins to work towards the perfection of its own body, by nourishment and growth. As to the active power which was in the semen, it ceases to exist, when the semen is dissolved and the (vital) spirit thereof vanishes. Nor is there anything unreasonable in this, because this force is not the principal but the instrumental agent; and the movement of an instrument ceases when once the effect has been produced.Question 118. The production of man from man as to the soul St Thomas acknowledges the pre existence of the soul in the male semen and in the foetal matter of the female but that the seed vanishes (dies like the grain of wheat) as it becomes one with the vegetative soul order that the sensitive soul should emerge and grow to become the intellectual soul in other words though the Intellectual soul which is not present at conception the constituent parts, according to Aquinas are present and together at conception form a sensitive soul. Now this is a theory that is disputed and most scholars have since concluded that St Thomas was wrong and that the Human Soul is the Soul and is present from conception in its entirety. In short Mairtin St Thomas acknowledge that the Soul is a gift from God as I stated. and also stated that the soul is the form of the Body. As for the matter of you stating that Aquinas did not consider abortion of a foetus before ensoulment Murder I have already given my answer. However, not that anyone else reading this will need reminding, here are your words once again. St Aquinas along with Augustine and St. Jerome thought that ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weights after conception and did not regard abortion up to that point as being murder. His view was confirmed by the Council of Vienne in 1311
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OsullivanB	Monday, 6. July 2009, 10:23 Post #27
Posts: 2,203 Group: Moderator Member #205 Joined: August 14, 2008	The central real issue in the abortion controversy in my view is exactly what the Church resolves by reference to ensoulment. The Church's has been wholly consistent in teaching that the destruction of an ensouled body is murder whether before or after birth. The teaching on abortion never changed. The understanding of ensoulment evolved. The debate with the pro-choice lobby is truly one about ensoulment, but that term is unlikely to win the argument with non-believers. The common law of England doesn't recognise the unborn child as a "person". So it can't sue or be sued. And it can't be murdered. This, I believe has been so since the common law began in the 12th century. Many, perhaps most, of those who favour the legality of abortion take the same "depersonalisation" stance expressly or by implication. The debate about the latest stage at which abortion should be lawful is therefore very similar to the ensoulment debate long settled in the Church. I'm not sure that we have found the language which will let us win this debate in the secular realm.



Mairtin	Monday, 6. July 2009, 15:35 Post #28
Posts: 1,156 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: August 16, 2008	Penfold Monday, 6. July 2009, 10:04 Further I did not say that St Thomas said the soul entered the body at conception Your original post certainly implied that he did as I think you will see if you go back and read it. If, however, you are saying that was not what you meant and that you agree that he did not think that, then I have no dispute with you on that point. Penfold As for the matter of you stating that Aquinas did not consider abortion of a foetus before ensoulment Murder I have already given my answer. However, not that anyone else reading this will need reminding, here are your words once again. St Aquinas along with Augustine and St. Jerome thought that ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weights after conception and did not regard abortion up to that point as being murder. His view was confirmed by the Council of Vienne in 1311 Perhaps I'm being obtuse here but I cannot see where you did answer it; also, I cannot see why you simply repeat my words in what comes across as an accusatory tone. Are you seriously disputing that whilst Aquinas, Augustine and Jerome regarded all abortion as sin, that they regarded abortion before ensoulment as a much lesser sin and not murder? Edit I'm still waiting, by the way, for you to either point out where I said that the Church or the named saints ever permitted or supported abortion. Edited by Mairtin, Monday, 6. July 2009, 15:39.
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KatyA	Monday, 6. July 2009, 16:41 Post #29
Administrator Posts: 5,414 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	Quote: point out where I said that the Church or the named saints ever permitted or supported abortion. I'm sorry Mairtin but I read Quote: St Aquinas along with Augustine and St. Jerome thought that ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weeks after conception and did not regard abortion up to that point as being murder. His view was confirmed by the Council of Vienne in 1311 as indicating that abortion was supported



Mairtin	Monday, 6. July 2009, 17:55 Post #30
Posts: 1,156 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: August 16, 2008	KatyA Monday, 6. July 2009, 16:41 Quote: point out where I said that the Church or the named saints ever permitted or supported abortion. I'm sorry Mairtin but I read Quote: St Aquinas along with Augustine and St. Jerome thought that ensoulment did not take place until somewhere around eight to ten weeks after conception and did not regard abortion up to that point as being murder. His view was confirmed by the Council of Vienne in 1311 as indicating that abortion was supported I'm struggling to see where you got that conclusion from, Katy. Regarding abortion before ensoulment as a lesser sin than after ensoulment does not equate to supporting it or permitting it. Can I also point out that I am reporting the facts here, not giving a personal opinion; all three of the named Saints made it clear that they regarded it as a lesser sin and that - apart from a short interruption during the papacy of Sixtus V - was the official position of the Church up until 1869 when the present rule of automatic excommunication for abortion at all stages of pregnancy was instituted by Pope Pius IX.
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