"thinking like an adult"

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"thinking like an adult"
Topic Started: Tuesday, 30. June 2009, 13:43 (648 Views)
Ned	Monday, 6. July 2009, 18:19 Post #16
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	Penfold Saturday, 4. July 2009, 19:36 I also would prefer to live in a world where my actions rather than my thoughts are governed by the law. At the Final Reckoning we will be judged by our thoughts Quote: And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life? But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou? He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself. That's from the Gospel of Saint Luke, chapter 10, verses 25 to 27. Saint Matthew and Saint Mark tell us the same. And so it's a simple matter of 'Yes' or 'No'. It isn't a game of Snakes & Ladders, or '40 percent and you pass, below 40 percent and you fail'. We are all sinners, and we need renewal, have to repent; that is, we have to totally change our way of thinking, our whole outlook on life. No more 'Clever Mister Smart Alec'. We have to love God with everything that we have in us, and our neighbour as ourselves. The Church has to change too. Archbishop Martin has got it right:"... ... Archbishop Martin, in his homily, said the path of renewal for the Church was "a path of suffering". And he appealed to Irish Catholics to renounce in their hearts and their lives many attitudes dear to them, and to purify their "understanding of God from the many cultural accretions which would tend to create a comfortable Christianity, a smug Christianity, a domineering or patronising Christianity, all of which are founded on a false sense of what brings certainty to faith". Renewal demanded conversion and conversion was always painful, he added. "It requires the pain of recognising errors and misconduct." A faith that seeks to align itself with a culture that was not open to understanding the true nature and the activity of God ends up just as an ideology or a veneer, he added." That's from a report by John Cooney in the Irish Independent http://www.independent.ie/national-news/martin-hits-out-at-media-plan-for-church-renewal-1807367.html Regards Ned Edited by Ned, Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 15:03.



Rose of York	Monday, 6. July 2009, 19:01 Post #17
Administrator Posts: 14,558 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Ned Monday, 6. July 2009, 18:19 [/b]A faith that seeks to align itself with a culture that was not open to understanding the true nature and the activity of God ends up just as an ideology or a veneer, he added."[/b] That's from a report by John Cooney in the Irish Independent http://www.independent.ie/national-news/martin-hits-out-at-media-plan-for-church-renewal-1807367.html A faith held because it is part of one's culture needs a personal renewal. It is all to easy to grow up as a Mass attender and just sort of carrying on going because that is what one has always done. To experience a personal renewal one has to think. If one does not think how does one love God with all one's mind?
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


John Sweeney	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 09:49 Post #18
Posts: 1,850 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	I wonder what exactly Archbishop Martin means by "cultural accretions"? Catholicism is full of cultural accretions which have been accepted and in some cases absorbed into Church practice without ever having become official teaching. To strip the Faith of all these would be a major task and would leave us with a very different looking body of belief. To take a fairly trivial example which is an example of practice which is repeated in thousands of ways especially but not exclusively in majority Catholic countries like Ireland, Italy and Spain. Last time I visited Croagh Patrick in County Mayo there were two men praying at the statue of St Patrick at the foot of the mountain. They were saying the rosary ( separately) to themselves as they slowly walked round the statue. One of them came over to us afterwards and welcomed us to Ireland, asked where we were from and so on. He told me that he gained an indulgence by reciting a decade of the Rosary while walking round the statue 3 times. Personally I see no pint to the 3 times but then it does no harm. Is the Archbishop suggesting all this type of thing is swept away and that we return to the pure Faith as taught officially? John



Joe Valente	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 10:14 Post #19
Posts: 403 Group: Members Member #227 Joined: April 3, 2009	"Personally I see no pint to the 3 times but then it does no harm. " John, 3 times walking around that statue and I would be needing a pint
	What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul


Rose of York	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 10:21 Post #20
Administrator Posts: 14,558 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Joe Valente Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 10:14 "Personally I see no pint to the 3 times but then it does no harm. " John, 3 times walking around that statue and I would be needing a pint That would be self indulgence.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


OsullivanB	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 10:37 Post #21
Posts: 2,203 Group: Moderator Member #205 Joined: August 14, 2008	Presumably eight pints would be plenary self-indulgence.



Rose of York	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 10:40 Post #22
Administrator Posts: 14,558 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	That depends upon whether the eight pints are drunk for the sole purpose of empowerment of the imbiber, to think like an adult.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


John Sweeney	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 11:39 Post #23
Posts: 1,850 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	As it happens there is a decent pub but a stone's throw from the statue--Campbell's I seem to remember. I once walked up Croagh Patrick and upon collapsing into the pub afterwards my friend was so knackered that he let the first pint slip from his hand to shatter on the floor. Unperturbed, without a word, Mr Campbell--I think it was he--simply picked up another glass and began re-pouring. John



Ned	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 14:41 Post #24
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	Rose of York Monday, 6. July 2009, 19:01 A faith held because it is part of one's culture needs a personal renewal. It is all to easy to grow up as a Mass attender and just sort of carrying on going because that is what one has always done. To experience a personal renewal one has to think. If one does not think how does one love God with all one's mind? Here's something that I've just found on the Internet, Rose, - Renewal of the Mind, by Dr. William C. Weinrich, Academic Dean of Concordia Theological Seminary. And here's an extract - Quote: In his letter to the Romans Paul exhorts: "Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewal of the mind so that you might attest what is the will of God" (Rom.12:2). We often consider the mind as the same as the intellect. The intellect is the instrument by which we think thoughts. Were the mind the same as the intellect, Paul would be exhorting us to think good and right thoughts. Obviously, this would not be a bad thing, but it is not to what Paul exhorts us. We come closer to what Paul intended if we consider another but related passage, namely, 1 Peter 1:13-14: "Roll up the sleeves of your mind, be sober and set your hope fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As children of obedience, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance."1 The Greek words used by Paul and by Peter do not merely mean "to think" thoughts, nor do they merely refer to the organ of thinking. If there were anything foreign to biblical thought, it was the idea that God is an idea. God is not thought, for He is not an external object for our thinking. The full article is at http://www.lifeoftheworld.com/lotw/article.php?a_num=2&m_num=4&m_vol=9 http://www.lifeoftheworld.com/lotw/article.php?a_num=2&m_num=4&m_vol=9 It's well worth reading. And how do we make the change ? We pray to God for Him to give us His grace.



Ned	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 15:11 Post #25
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	John Sweeney Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 09:49 I wonder what exactly Archbishop Martin means by "cultural accretions"? Catholicism is full of cultural accretions which have been accepted and in some cases absorbed into Church practice without ever having become official teaching. To strip the Faith of all these would be a major task and would leave us with a very different looking body of belief. Is the Archbishop suggesting all this type of thing is swept away and that we return to the pure Faith as taught officially? I think so, John. I certainly hope so.



Ned	Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 15:32 Post #26
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	John Sweeney Tuesday, 7. July 2009, 09:49 To take a fairly trivial example which is an example of practice which is repeated in thousands of ways especially but not exclusively in majority Catholic countries like Ireland, Italy and Spain. Last time I visited Croagh Patrick in County Mayo there were two men praying at the statue of St Patrick at the foot of the mountain. They were saying the rosary ( separately) to themselves as they slowly walked round the statue. One of them came over to us afterwards and welcomed us to Ireland, asked where we were from and so on. He told me that he gained an indulgence by reciting a decade of the Rosary while walking round the statue 3 times. Personally I see no point to the 3 times but then it does no harm. Hullo John, '... but then it does no harm' you say. I cannot agree with you there. Remember, please, Saint Paul's advice to Titus (in Chapter 1) Quote: 13 ... ... . Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work. 'To the pure all things are pure; but ... ' The trouble is that so much of this old rigmarole is being used as a supposed substitute for repentance, and also to serve as a 'KEEP OUT' sign, telling people-who-aren't-like-us to stay away from Catholic churches. Regards Ned



John Sweeney	Wednesday, 8. July 2009, 14:49 Post #27
Posts: 1,850 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	I suppose you have a point Ned in that there was one non-Catholic with me that day and I could see he was uneasy and perplexed when first seeing the men walking round the staue and praying . On the other hand, he was boweld over by the man who finishe dhis prayers and came over to talk to us. I couldn't help thinking that this natural charm and attachment to the unusual form of prayer were all wrapped up in the same parcel somehow and maybe it is best to try picking away at individual strands. How far do you think this attempt to "get back to basics" will go? Are some of the Marian pilgrimage sites open to be classed as "cultural accretions" to the Faith? Or is the Archbishop not likely to be thinking as widely as this? I could see that the Medj one I can never remember how to spell could be so classified, for example. John



Ned	Wednesday, 8. July 2009, 16:10 Post #28
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	John Sweeney Wednesday, 8. July 2009, 14:49 Are some of the Marian pilgrimage sites open to be classed as "cultural accretions" to the Faith? Hi John, The cultural accretions' that I'm primarily thinking off are in two categories (but with a lot of overlapping) : 1. The 'KEEP OUT' signs. 2. The 'EXTRAS'. Regards Ned



Ned	Wednesday, 8. July 2009, 16:32 Post #29
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	John Sweeney Wednesday, 8. July 2009, 14:49 Are some of the Marian pilgrimage sites open to be classed as "cultural accretions" to the Faith? As a teetotaller I'm probably prejudiced but yes, I see Marian pilgrimages as a "cultural accretion". Just read through http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=63144.html Lourdes is famous for its drunken Brits. Popular pilgrimages have never been any different; you've read the Canterbury Tales. I understand that the Council of Frejus and the Council of York both barred nuns from going on pilgrimage.



Joe Valente	Wednesday, 8. July 2009, 17:18 Post #30
Posts: 403 Group: Members Member #227 Joined: April 3, 2009	Ned, I am saddened to read your post. I have been to Loudes 26 times and have never seen the "famed drunken Brits" that you refer to. Two of my visits coincided with the International Military Pilgrimage, asnd yes on those occasions there was some public drunkeness and I have to save , to my shame, that the Irish contingent were well to the forefront here. However it was great to see the willingness of these soldiers to help with sick and the invalids, even in some of the pubs leaving their drinks to assist someone in a wheelchair. I have seen and met some wonderful Diocesan pilgrimages from England in Lourdes (and in Fatima). I honestly believe that your reference to drunken Brits is very unfair (and this is coming from an Irishman) Lourdes is a wonderful place and a truly wonderfdul and spiritual experience. If this is a "cultural accretion" I can only wish for more of them.
	What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul


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