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| Services of Word and Holy Communion; "Eucharistic Services" | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 25. June 2009, 16:35 (255 Views) | |
| Derekap | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 16:35 Post #1 |
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I am confused. Presumably the Liturgy of the Word and Distribution of Holy Communion (formerly known as The Eucharistic Service) was instituted after Vatican 2 to be held when and/or where a priest was not available to offer Holy Mass. Now we are told it must not be held on Sundays or other Holydays of Obligation because people might think it is a Holy Mass or as good as. Nor must it be held on weekdays because there is no need of it. So when can it be held? Are there any paragraphs headed by four digits or other documentation which refer to it - as opposed to Bishops' rulings or opinions or lay people's opinions? In pre V2 days there were ocasions when a priest distributed Holy Communion outside Holy Mass. Not expecting to relate such occasions years later I naturally did not make any notes. I think where a priest usually offered a Holy Mass about breakfast time but was faced with the necessity of providing a Requiem Holy Mass later then he might have just distributed Holy Communion at the regular time. But I'm sure such a facility was sometimes announced during Holy Mass on Sundays and not just for that reason. Certainly whilst there were some (very very few) prayers and a Blessing (in Latin of course) there were no Readings from the Bible. Edited by Derekap, Thursday, 25. June 2009, 16:36.
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 17:01 Post #2 |
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Deleted as only relevant to thread in which originally posted. Penfold |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 21:57 Post #3 |
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The point is, did the Vatican introduce the service strictly for situations in which a Sunday Mass was out of the question, or for weekdays? When were they introduced? My first knowledge of them was in the early eighties, years after Vatican 2. |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Fortunatus | Friday, 26. June 2009, 18:05 Post #4 |
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Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia (2003). The "specific document" referred to is Redemptionis Sacramentum. Rather than go into further lengthy quotes, can I suggest http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20IV with particular reference to paras 162 et seq which seem to me to explain Pope John Paul's intention as expressed above. Whether this explanation satisfies those who see Holy Communion "on demand" as the epitome of Catholic life is another matter. |
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| Derekap | Friday, 26. June 2009, 20:22 Post #5 |
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I have carefully read paragraphs 162/3/4/5 and 6 and to me they do not answer my questions nor help to clarify my confusion. For what purpose was the Liturgy of the Word and Distribution of Holy Communion instituted if it is to be very reluctantly and very exceptionally permitted in place of the inavailability of Holy Mass on Saturday Evenings and Sundays and virtually forbidden on Weekdays? I particularly noticed the very glib suggestion that people attend Holy Mass in another church. This may be alright in Rome where there are plenty of churches and a reasonable transport system and London even, although there may be fewer churches but in regions where there are smaller towns, some with a Catholic church, and public transport is much less frequent or available the situation is very different. And, no doubt, the writers have cars and maybe chauffeur-driven cars. Interpreters of these paragraphs must bear these factors in mind. (Although one sees plenty of buses in the central area of Greater London the routes get less frequent the further one leaves the central area) Edited by Derekap, Friday, 26. June 2009, 20:27.
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| Rose of York | Friday, 26. June 2009, 20:43 Post #6 |
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Derek, the document offers the suggestion of the faithful transferring to another church as one of several alternative solutions. Regarding people wanting Holy Communion during the week, outside the celebration of Mass, in disobedience to the Holy See, I can no longer hold back from asking, does it kill anybody's soul not to receive Holy Communion every single day? Nobody is likely to deny them the opportunity to gather for prayer. Rome has spoken. The Church of England is falling apart because there is no consistency in belief and practises. We are in danger of going down that route. We need to respect and accept the authority of persons appointed by the Holy Father, to make liturgical decisions. Some parish priests set an example of disobedience. Do they in turn expect disobedience from their parishioners? |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Rose of York | Friday, 26. June 2009, 20:47 Post #7 |
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For the past fifteen years or so I have had no opportunity to regularly attend Mass mid week. My faith is undiminished and I do not believe that God will give me less of his help than he gives other people who have more free time, and more choice of churches and Mass times. Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are commissioned to assist when strictly necessary. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Fortunatus | Friday, 26. June 2009, 20:49 Post #8 |
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I'm sorry, Derek, but I find it quite clear. Services of the Word are to be used with the permission of the bishop as an emergency measure where there are no priests available. We are talking primarily about parts of the world where parishes are bigger than the whole of the UK! Your argument about transport is fallacious and someone of your vintage ought to know better. In rural parts of England there have always been outlying villages that were either served from another parish or where residents needed to make their own way to the nearest town when a lot fewer of them had cars than have today and the transport system on a Sunday morning was often as woeful as it is now. And we didn't have the option of a Saturday evening Mass when the chances of getting a bus home might have been marginally better. And we managed somehow without Services of the Word. But the conditions which the Vatican has applied are that such Services are permitted — with the consent of the bishop — where there was no Mass the previous Sunday and there will not be one the coming Sunday either. John Paul's stated intention in Ecclesia de Eucharistica was to put a stop to what he saw as abuses and the devaluation of the Eucharist. The "Communion on demand" attitude was one of the abuses he identified; the detachment of Communion from the celebration of the Mass was to be avoided wherever possible. Which is why Redemptionis Sacramentum called for an end to Services of the Word and Holy Communion just because the parish priest was having a day off or had gone on a couple of days retreat or was attending some deanery wingding. As Rose has pointed out on more than one occasion (and Redemptionis Sacramentum backs her to the hilt) there are a lot of other ways of adoring the Blessed Sacrament that don't involve mini-priests holding mini-Masses because they can and the local Ordinary hasn't the wit to tell them where to get off. And that's before you start on the Rosary or the Liturgy of the Hours or any of the other devotions that seem to have become passé in recent years largely, I suspect, because the resident OGC doesn't get to do her thing in full view of the adoring masses. I see you nipped in ahead of me, Rose. I think what you say pretty well accords with what I said. What happened to the normal Catholic "default" position which was that what the Church (ie the Pope and the Vatican) decided was the way things were to be? Edited by Fortunatus, Friday, 26. June 2009, 20:55.
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| Rose of York | Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:31 Post #9 |
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We parishioners received individual copies of a document stating that from a certain date, regular devotions would be encouraged in churches that had no resident priest. A man turned to me and said "I see the Eucharistic Ministers are being asked to lead Stations and Rosary" to which I replied "there is nothing there to say who will lead them, it says lay led. I take it that any parishioner can lead them." The man said it was obvious it would be the "Eucharistic Ministers" because that is what they are there for. Illicity held Services of Word and Holy Communion have led to the mistaken beleif that Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are commissioned to lead the "others" in all matters spiritual. Much as I respect the Methodists (whose lay preachers lead Sunday Services) I am not a Methodist, I am a Catholic, subject to the authority of the Pope. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Rose of York | Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:34 Post #10 |
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"Society" changed, wanted freedom for people to do their own thing. My generation, the war babies, decided to get with it, in church, and do things the way they wanted to do them. If we don't like the rules, we decide for ourselves they are wrong, stupid, nonsensical, unreasonable, should never have been laid down. Plain unadulterated selfish disobedience, but we laity do not make vows of obedience, do we? |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Fortunatus | Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:42 Post #11 |
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Humph! I was taught that in some respects I was the equal of any man but that there were those who for good reason were placed in charge. If I behaved myself and ate my cabbage one day I might become one of them and in a small and very local way I eventually did. But the Papacy never figured in my ambitions so I am happy to leave it to him to tell me what is right and wrong. We are all men (except for the women) "subject to authority". As far the EXTRAORDINARY MINISTERS OF HOLY COMMUNION (forgive me, but if you don't say it very loudly people get it wrong Should we be looking to go back on topic, do you think? 
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| Rose of York | Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:50 Post #12 |
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The two topics of EMHCs and Services of Word and Holy Communion are very closely linked. Without the former, you can't have the latter. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Fortunatus | Friday, 26. June 2009, 21:52 Post #13 |
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And without the latter, you don't need the former. 
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| Rose of York | Friday, 26. June 2009, 22:18 Post #14 |
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Thy are needed, for Holy Communion and associated prayers when one is too ill to get to Mass. Is the brief service at home the same as the one held in churches? I had Communion at home for a few weeks, thirty years ago. I think it was a very brief service, just a few minutes. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 27. June 2009, 11:09 Post #15 |
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On a slightly related topic, is this permissible: Lay led Exposition, when it is pre planned in advance that a lay person (who is an Extraordinary Minister) will place the consecrated host in the monstrance and put the monstrance on the altar for adoration. In that person's absence another EMHC will deputise. I feel uneasy about this. It is even announced it will be "led by Anthony". |
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