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Lay led devotions ; not about Communion Services
Topic Started: Monday, 22. June 2009, 13:54 (620 Views)
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Penfold
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 08:48

In general I dislike the increasing practice of accumulated liturgies and having everything crammed into the one service, it is poor liturgical practice and fails to give proper reverence to the individual elements and is like taking your breakfast, lunch and dinner, piling it into a blender and having a large inedible smoothy once a day.
What a wonderfully vivid analogy :yeah:
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Fortunatus

Our Benediction was conducted by the priest; at his request I led Evening Prayer (as I regularly lead Morning Prayer) though I would have been happier if he had led it since he was present. However, since Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Night Prayer are not in fact parts of the Liturgy of the Hours it seems reasonable for it to be led by a lay person. The alternative would have been to have Vespers led by the priest.
Your idea about timings for things like Morning Prayer, Penfold, are fine unless you have to live in the real world :wh: Some people are quite happy to come to Morning Prayer but I doubt I would get any (me included) if I scheduled it for 8.30 with Mass at 9.30. I agree that it it better as a separate service but since without a hymn it takes 9 minutes, 15 minutes before Mass seems time enough to provide the proper break between the two.
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Mairtin
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I agree with Rose in general about the use of on Eucharistic services though my childhood memories of them are not as pleasant as hers; the Sunday evening devotions weren’t too bad but I used to detest the Holy Hour which was once a month and also hated having to go to devotions every night during May and October.

I think that there is a lot of education to do with people in regard to such forms of prayer, both to those who have unpleasant childhood memories of them being a chore rather than a pleasure and those who have never experienced them. I’ve seen that recently myself recently when I was trying to promote the online Rosary and found a distinct lack of interest. I can understand that perfectly, I myself had abandoned the Rosary for a long time, regarding it as simply “praying by numbers”. It was only when I got into Lectio Divina and did a little bit of dabbling in Centring Prayer that I was told by someone to try the Rosary as a contemplative prayer – which is exactly what it is, of course – that I discovered its true beauty and it is now an important part of my own prayer life.

In my whole life as a Catholic, I had personally never experienced the Divine Office until very recently, it was something that I always associated with priests and monastic orders and never really knew much about. It was only when I was looking for a focal point for the Online Prayer and had discovered on this forum that it is part of an Oblate’s prayer life, that I decided to try it out and discovered it’s true value. The Compline we do every night online takes less than 10 minutes yet several of the people involved have commented that they cannot think of any better way to end the day, something I agree with 100%. I’m now hoping to introduce other parts of the Divine Office fairly soon, for example Vespers at 5:45 with the Angelus following at 6:00, another great prayer that I think is sadly forgotten about nowadays.

For anyone interested in finding out more about the Divine Office the Universalis site is excellent, it gives you the appropriate daily prayers for each of the Hours of the Liturgy, you’ll find them along the menu at the top. The only thing I would say is don’t try to jump into trying to do too much too quickly, you’ll only overwhelm yourself. I think it’s better to pick some one such as Morning Prayer or Night Prayer for a while, and then add another.

I’d also recommend trying to find some way of joining the prayer with other people whether it’s in your local church or online. Nowadays there is a great tendency to do things by ourselves or for ourselves but Jesus promised that wherever two or more of us gathered together in His name, he would be there with us; all prayer is good but praying along with other people brings its own special rewards.
Edited by Mairtin, Saturday, 27. June 2009, 13:49.
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Rose, benediction has never been abandoned and evening masses have been around since the begining of Christianity, as a child in the early sixties we would often go to a Sunday Evening Mass.
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Fortunatus
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 12:56
Our Benediction was conducted by the priest; at his request I led Evening Prayer (as I regularly lead Morning Prayer) though I would have been happier if he had led it since he was present. However, since Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Night Prayer are not in fact parts of the Liturgy of the Hours it seems reasonable for it to be led by a lay person. The alternative would have been to have Vespers led by the priest.
Your idea about timings for things like Morning Prayer, Penfold, are fine unless you have to live in the real world :wh: Some people are quite happy to come to Morning Prayer but I doubt I would get any (me included) if I scheduled it for 8.30 with Mass at 9.30. I agree that it it better as a separate service but since without a hymn it takes 9 minutes, 15 minutes before Mass seems time enough to provide the proper break between the two.


I did say timings were dependent upon circumstances and I do live in the real world and have run a very successful parish and organised services in very difficult circumstances.
Morning, evening and night prayer are an integral part of the Liturgy of the Hours, Unless you are using some Mick Mouse :mickey: home grown variety.
If you are doing it in 9 mins you might as well not bother there is meant to be time to reflect on the Word of God and to pray with reverence.
It is no wonder people are turning away from church or looking back to the days of the Latin Mass for spiritual gratification if the liturgy offered is served up like a fast-food takeaway.
:cook: :stirthepot: :miss: :sotc: :miss:
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 14:41
Rose, benediction has never been abandoned and evening masses have been around since the begining of Christianity, as a child in the early sixties we would often go to a Sunday Evening Mass.
Penfold, you have your life's experiences, I have mine.

Benediction HAS been abandoned in some parishes. I have lived where I live now for over ten years, we had it ONCE. I lived in my previous parish for twenty years, we had Benediction on Sunday afternoons for one summer. The parish priest was moved, the well attended Benediction was cancelled by the new priest. There was no shortage of clergy in that place.

No parish within one hour's drive of my home has regular Benediction. That area includes one half of a major city and several towns.
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus

Thank you for that kick in the pants, Penfold. I shall remember to tell my fellow worshippers next Friday that they're doing it all wrong. I'm sure that will encourage them no end.
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 14:41
Rose, benediction has never been abandoned and evening masses have been around since the begining of Christianity, as a child in the early sixties we would often go to a Sunday Evening Mass.
I was not a Catholic in any century prior to the twentieth. I assure you, there were no evening Masses in my younger days. When was the rule about fasting from midnight abolished?

I am reminded of the day a priest gave me simple advice more appropriate for a child, I grinned and said "Father, I knew that before you were born."
Keep the Faith!

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Fortunatus
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:25
Thank you for that kick in the pants, Penfold. I shall remember to tell my fellow worshippers next Friday that they're doing it all wrong. I'm sure that will encourage them no end.
Sorry
Fortunatus but you have touched on a hoby horse of mine , hasty liturgy cramed in on the bases of quantity not quality. :bud:
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 14:58
Fortunatus
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 12:56
Our Benediction was conducted by the priest; at his request I led Evening Prayer (as I regularly lead Morning Prayer) though I would have been happier if he had led it since he was present. However, since Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Night Prayer are not in fact parts of the Liturgy of the Hours it seems reasonable for it to be led by a lay person. The alternative would have been to have Vespers led by the priest.
Your idea about timings for things like Morning Prayer, Penfold, are fine unless you have to live in the real world :wh: Some people are quite happy to come to Morning Prayer but I doubt I would get any (me included) if I scheduled it for 8.30 with Mass at 9.30. I agree that it it better as a separate service but since without a hymn it takes 9 minutes, 15 minutes before Mass seems time enough to provide the proper break between the two.


I did say timings were dependent upon circumstances and I do live in the real world and have run a very successful parish and organised services in very difficult circumstances.
Morning, evening and night prayer are an integral part of the Liturgy of the Hours, Unless you are using some Mick Mouse :mickey: home grown variety.
If you are doing it in 9 mins you might as well not bother there is meant to be time to reflect on the Word of God and to pray with reverence.
It is no wonder people are turning away from church or looking back to the days of the Latin Mass for spiritual gratification if the liturgy offered is served up like a fast-food takeaway.
:cook: :stirthepot: :miss: :sotc: :miss:
The online Compline in which I take part does not take many minutes. Does that make it a Mickey Mouse home grown variety?

What do you mean, we might as well not bother? God hears our prayers. We are a small group, once a night we gather to pray and reflect, we announce special intentions before we commence. This is my spiritual lifeline.

Come on Penfold, take up this challenge please:

How long should we take over Compline?
Keep the Faith!

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Rose
You probably know how to suck eggs but please do not miss quote me or try to teach me my business. The context of my remark, the service being referred to was Morning Prayer not compline.
You’re on line prayer can take as long or as short a time as you like but if you are using the prayer of the church I would suggest that 10 minutes is a reasonable time considering you are meant to have a penitential reflection and a reflection upon the word of God.
You can have a snack or a banquette but don't pretend that the snack is a proper meal and that is what my course for concern is. People who advertise that they are leading a public prayer service, then rush through rather than taking the time to do it properly.
I do hope God hears all our prayers but I think it a courtesy speak to him in a manner more conducive to conversation than as if one were commenting on the 3:15 from Doncaster or York racecourse.
:megaphone:
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Ned

Penfold
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 14:41
... evening masses have been around since the begining of Christianity, as a child in the early sixties we would often go to a Sunday Evening Mass.
Fashions come and go. Masses did used to be celebrated only in the morning. I don't know why. (The Council of Trent ?).

Pope Pius XII sanctioned evening-Masses in the 1950's, but subject to considerable restrictions and only with the approval of the bishop. The restrictions were relaxed in the 1960's and then disappeared.

I don't object to evening-Masses in themselves. The problem is that nearly everywhere these Masses replaced all the evening services we used to have. Most evening services used to include a solid sermon. Catholics were regularly reminded of matters of Faith - the Trinity, the Incarnation etc.

Because there has been no religous instruction young Catholics don't know their Faith, and many old people have forgotten it. Monthly Holy Hours and Benediction have recently returned but without sermons so big chunks of the laity are as ignorant as ever.

Can I give you some examples from my own direct experience, and all in the last few years -

(1) Benediction at a special event - An old Irishman remarks on the Real Presence - I agree, Jesus Christ, true God and true man - he vehemently disagrees, insisting that it is the Real Presence of the Holy Spirit.

(2) At a Holy hour, with Jesus Christ there present on the altar in front of us - but no prayers or hymns to Jesus. The priest leads prayers to God the Father, and various parish groups lead prayers to Padre Pio etc. Complaints afterwards that things weren't done properly; we should have been saying the Rosary.

(3) Another Holy Hour, to mark a special event (I will not say what the event was or which well-respected organisation's name was used) some way away from my home - Jesus is there on the altar, but the priest has had to go off - a laywoman leads the prayers: all twenty decades of the Rosary, interspersed with a hymns on a cassette-player - the singer is the Irish singer/politician Dana; the songs are all to Mary (Queen of Ireland) and total schmaltz - we are given a special message from The Holy House on Achill Island 'Mary wants more prayers' - Jesus there in front of us is absolutely ignored from start to finish - We do the Stations of the Cross - the meditations are read out from a script you would have had to hear it to believe it - I don't want to seem disrespectful but it didn't seem to be the Passion of Christ at all - it was all about the sufferings of His Blessed Mother.

(4) In discussion with an elderly nun (younger than me) - I mention that Jesus is God the Son - she asks what I mean - I say that Jesus is God the Son, born of the Father before time began, incarnate of the Virgin Mary. She insists that the baby Jesus was a new person. I go through the Nicene Creed with her, and eventually she reluctantly accepts what I've said.

As Rose has already said the Faith has been murdered.

We need a fresh start - the whole country should be considered mission territory.
Edited by Ned, Saturday, 27. June 2009, 16:30.
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:agree: Ned
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Rose of York
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Ned, :agree:

My husband, a convert, had no instruction of any kind for years, other than five to ten minute sermons. Nothing else was available. Thanks to EWTN he has, in the past year, experienced a spiritual revival, he has been receiving good sound catechesis. Anybody fancy being a Telly Catholic? Not the ideal situation is it?
Keep the Faith!

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OsullivanB

There were certainly evening masses in the 1950s. But I can't vouch for them other than on the first Friday of every month. That was when I "did" the nine first Fridays. My recollection is that fasting from midnight only applied to masses up to midday. Later masses were subject to a three-hour fast.

My personal experience is that Morning Prayer rarely takes less than 20 minutes (on my own) and tends to feel rushed if it takes less than 25 minutes to 30 minutes. A hymn, five psalms/canticles, a reading, a responsory, the intercessions, Our Father and concluding prayer take a bit of working through. If Morning Prayer lasts no more than ten minutes, I think it must be an abbreviated edition.

Compline is a much shorter format.
Edited by OsullivanB, Saturday, 27. June 2009, 16:53.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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