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| Lay led devotions ; not about Communion Services | |
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| Topic Started: Monday, 22. June 2009, 13:54 (619 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Monday, 22. June 2009, 13:54 Post #1 |
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Where I live, in a small rural outpost, it would be unreasonable to expect to have a resident priest. That leaves us with a problem. There is only one Mass per week, on Saturday evenings. There is no other Catholic church within ten miles. The situation could be viewed positively and used to reintroduce a variety of devotions. We could have Daily Office, morning, afternoon and/or evening, rosary, a charismatic prayer group, Stations of the Cross. Recently, at the request of two lay people, the chapel of ease had Exposition and Holy Hour. Those two people could not understand why hardly anybody turned up, if they had asked me, I could have told them. Few parishioners are happy to see a small number deciding between themselves what THEY will provide for US. I once attended Exposition, and was surprised to see a lay person take a consecrated host from the tabernacle, place it in a monstrance, then spend an hour playing CDs of music and reflections. I just felt uneasy about it. Others would be willing to lead Divine Office, rosary or stations, but not Exposition, we see that as usurping the role of the ordained priest, blurring the difference. The current unwritten rule is that it is for Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion to lead the people in prayer. A few miles down the road, whenever our priest is away for a few days, they have Services of the Word and Holy Communion, in contravention of the direct instructions of our bishop, that they must not take place in locations that have a Mass on Saturday evening or on Sunday. How far should this blurring of the roles of ordained clergy and the laity go? My choice for chapels of ease without a resident priest would be for any parishioner to be free to volunteer to have their names on a rota, comitting themselves to be present to lead prayers, the sort of prayers a mother or father might say with their children. Also I would like to see Bible studies, lay led if necessary, by a person who demonstrates competence, and the parish priest overseeing, calling in when he is able. |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 22. June 2009, 21:34 Post #2 |
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It would be an interesting experiment, would we have good congregations, as we did in the days when every church had Benediction Sunday and Thursday, and in many parishes, a weekly novena to Our Blessed Lady? If plenty of people turned up, the experiment could be extended to a few parishes in large towns, to assess the response. Is it better to have an evening Mass every day, at the expense of other forms of Catholic prayer? |
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| Rose of York | Monday, 22. June 2009, 23:37 Post #3 |
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This will sound uncharitable, I never saw it as greed for the Eucharist, I saw it as greed for taking over the sacramental side of the priest's work. Agreed, I am all for laity taking over as much admin as they can, provided tasks are allocated to competent people. As an example, I would do financial records, but if asked to negotiate with the planning authorities I would suggest they find someone who has experience in that field. I do miss the old devotions, am I unusual? Look at it this way, a mother and father can lead their children in their prayers at the end of the day, so why is there not more encouragement for laity to do that in the church building? There are many who have no opportunity for shared prayer. Some live alone, some are married to people who don't want to know about prayer, there will be widowers and widowers whose grown up children will not kneel down at home and pray with mother and father. Churches could open in the morning or afternoon for Morning Prayer or Evening Prayer. We have grown accustomed to churches being open for communal prayer in the evenings, why not just before or after the school run, when the mothers are in the area? They might like to pop into church. |
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| Rose of York | Tuesday, 23. June 2009, 11:30 Post #4 |
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I have concerns that our young Catholics, and our converts, are not experiencing specifically Catholic prayer. My husband is a convert. In the past year he has experienced Lenten Stations of the Cross and daily Rosary. I consider it a disgrace that he must rely upon a television channel (EWTN) for this. His faith and grasp of Catholic spirituality have been enriched during the past year, thanks to the installation of a satellite dish! Recently I have taken part in Lectio Divina on this forum, and Evening Prayer (Compline) online. Why should we be deprived of these, to pander to people who are free to travel all over the place, on pilgrimages, to special services at the Cathedral, Latin Masses miles away, and still want their own way in their parish, depriving others who thirst for traditional Catholic devotions (or for charismatic prayer groups). Mothers and fathers in our area cannot take their children along to church for daily May or October devotions, we don't have them. It was the same when we lived in a city. Those who wanted Communion Services when the priest was absent, had them. Redemtionis Sacramentum makes it clear that those services must not take place in a location that has a Vigil or Sunday Mass. It is my nature to acknowledge rightful authority, possibly due to a strict upbringing and my time in the armed forces. When the troops make their own decisions in contravention of orders from persons appointed to lead, the result is mutiny. Even when the priest is available and says daily Mass, it would be beneficial to have some sort of evening devotions, with parishioners on a rota to lead if he is not available. Our Catholic culture is being murdered. |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 19:47 Post #5 |
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I tried and tried to get this topic back to the subject of our lost devotions. The removed postings are now in a topic about Services of Word and Holy Communion, in Mass, Liturgy and Sacraments Section. |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 19:49 Post #6 |
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Well? Is it worth abandoning devotion to the Mother of our Saviour, because there happens to be a priest available? He has to say Mass once a day. The priests used to say Mass in the morning, and hold other services in the evenings. The baby was thrown out with the bathwater. Now, those who insist Daily Mass is what they want, get what they want. In most of our Catholic churches, those who want other forms of prayer get no consideration whatsoever. |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 20:10 Post #7 |
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I have deleted my post from the other thread because it was posted as relevant to this discussion. To understand why other forms of devotion are being overlooked it is important to understand why Eucharistic Services are so popular and how their use is being abused. |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 25. June 2009, 20:32 Post #8 |
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Penfold, sorry about that, but splitting posts is such a fiddly job, requiring intense concentration, mistakes are easily made. If it happens again, you can always ask us to put it back in place. |
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| Fortunatus | Friday, 26. June 2009, 22:05 Post #9 |
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I'm sure you're right, Penfold, and I've just posted a possible (mildly cynical ) reason on the Services of the Word thread.Perhaps you can give us your slant on this because there is hardly any doubt that such services are being abused and with the active connivance of priests and bishops who must have read Redemptionis Sacramentum There have been a couple of bishops in the last year or two who have withdrawn their support for Services of the Word but there has been no suggestion that I have seen that they are insisting on obedience at parish level. Meanwhile, as Rose said, many of the traditional devotions of the Church have been sidelined or suppressed. That said, I instituted (with Father's support) Vespers and Benediction on the Sundays of Advent a couple of years ago. I think the most we got was six! Which is about the same number we get for our weekly Morning Prayer before Mass on a Friday, though there are usually around 20 there for Mass itself. Why are the other 14 so reluctant to come along 15 minutes earlier? Sorry, this is a bit!
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| Rose of York | Friday, 26. June 2009, 22:23 Post #10 |
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How many of the parishioners know what Benediction and Vespers are? Benediction used to be at least twice a week in most parishes. Now we have Catholics aged fifty who have not experienced it during their adult lives. It could be that they consider it to be something "from the past". Just a thought! I never experienced Vespers in a church, when I was at school we were taught it was a prayer "that priests and religious say". Again, people don't know what it is. Is it worth persevering, in the hope it will become more popular? |
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| Fortunatus | Friday, 26. June 2009, 22:33 Post #11 |
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Let me be slightly more accurate. What we had was Evening Prayer which is based on Vespers. Most people knew (know) what Benediction is and Father gets a goodish response for his Saturday Holy Hour while Evening Prayer is remarkably similar in structure to Morning Prayer so we have enough who knew what to expect. I think that the problem is that, for all we have people of all shapes and sizes pressing for Mass or Service of the Word (with or without Holy Communion) every day, we are no longer able to get them to bestir themselves twice on the same day. So Vespers (or Evening Prayer)+Benediction at 4 or 4.30pm on a Sunday is a non-starter. On a similar tack there are usually four or five "different" faces at evening Mass on a Thursday (can't make morning since they're at work obviously) but would they bother to turn up for Rosary (with or without Benediction) or Stations or anything else? I suspect they wouldn't see the point. |
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| Deleted User | Saturday, 27. June 2009, 01:50 Post #12 |
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Benediction is a Eucharistic Celebration, and so we are probably not meant to mention it in this thread , that can only be administered by an Ordained Person. I am unclear from your posts Fortunatus who is conducting the Benediction you instituted. You are correct Vespers forms part of the Divine Office that Priest, deacons and religious say each day. It is the Prayer of the church and anyone who wishes may share in it. There are several versions for use by congregations, which abbreviate the 3 Vol Divine Office. I think its use should be encouraged and it can be quite beautiful if the Hymns are sung and the psalms intoned. The joy is that does not require a minister, special or otherwise, to lead it. |
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| PJD | Saturday, 27. June 2009, 08:05 Post #13 |
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"You are correct Vespers forms part of the Divine Office that Priest, deacons and religious say each day. It is the Prayer of the church and anyone who wishes may share in it. There are several versions for use by congregations, which abbreviate the 3 Vol Divine Office. I think its use should be encouraged and it can be quite beautiful if the Hymns are sung and the psalms intoned. The joy is that does not require a minister, special or otherwise, to lead it." I would like to make an observation about this Penfold - I mean what we call 'saying the office'. First it is very nice if said in the Church e.g. before Mass - but people come and go. When I started there were two or three, and it gradually increased to about eight or nine over a period, and thereafter reduced until there was only one (not me). At one instance as I was a sacristan, it was indicated to me that those duties over-rided joining in, and since then I rarely said the office in company. This story, if you like, reflects the fact that the priests, being fewer in number, are pushed to get as much help in the ordinary church arrangements. Another point, when I asked whether priests have the same difficulty as I have of saying the office at the correct time i.e. morning prayer in morning, evening in evening, - I was told that they had. In fact one priest was said as sometimes to say his office in one go, right through. In response to this another priest said that was 'illegal'. So you have to smile. Even on the internet at one time, a Jesuit I think, pointed out that saying morning prayer (e.g. at 2pm) was acceptable because you were in fact joining in with those on our planet who were still in morning time. There is a third point - and that priests do not as far as I know say the office with one another. They say it like most of us who say the office - in private. So there are difficulties all round as I see it in trying to get 'two or three' saying it together because for most people the 'opportunity-time' obviously varies according to the individual daily routine (or variable - and very variable - routine). Sorry to be so long winded about this. I can start morning prayer now - and then telephone goes - carry on where I left off - and then a knock at the door. Very unsatisfactory, so I avoid that sort of thing and say it anytime in a time when I am fairly certain not to be disturbed. Sorry to be so long winded, but I wanted to contribute to this subject in some way. PJD |
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| Deleted User | Saturday, 27. June 2009, 08:48 Post #14 |
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PJD Thanks Priests are obliged to say the office by virtue of the promise we make to the bishop at Ordination. It is awkward at times to say it at the right times of the day but your Jesuit friend, in typical Jesuit logic, is correct in that whenever we say the office we do so in communion with all the other priests around the world. In this way we are taking part in the one continuous prayer of the church. In normal duties in the UK I am not overly scrupulous about the timing it is usually within the zone but i am not too worried if I find myself saying mid-day prayer and morning prayer at 2pm but when oversees I find great comfort in saying my office at the correct times according to GMT (or Zulu as we call it in the military) in this way I feel that I am linked to the priests in the UK and not so isolated. The practice of tacking morning/evening prayer onto the Mass is greedy and defeats the purpose of what can and should be a wonderful occasion of prayer n its own right. I know it is common and in monastic communities it is part of life but I think that in the parish the 2 should be separated. If yo have the luxury of having a priest to say the weekday mass then let it be at a fixed and convenient time, I actually prefer mid-day because it catches people in their lunch hour but in the parish I found 9:30 was the popular time because it caught the mums after they had dropped off the Kids. Bu te ideal time for a daily mass is a long debate in itself. The prayer of the church can however be set at fixed times such as 7am, noon, 18:00 and 10pm it lasts only 15 mins unless you have the delights of music and singing when it can last over 30mins. It should be a separate service from the mass and independent of the requirement of the presence of a minister. Urban parishes are different from rural parishes and each must determine timings that suit them best but I would try to ensure that the Maximum devotional opportunities were available to the maximum number of people. Those going into work could get to mass before they start or during their lunch break while the Office is celebrated by those who have a more flexible timetable. Sorry I am being long winded now. Poor practice is not a valid excuse for ditching the office by those such as me who are obliged to say it. I also think that the excuse of not having enough time is poor because I turn of my mobile and ignore the landline phone while saying Mass and I do the same while saying the Office. Jesus took time aside to pray and we should do the same. 5 minutes in prayer is never wasted but fail to spend time in prayer and you are forever behind the drag curve. In general I dislike the increasing practice of accumulated liturgies and having everything crammed into the one service, it is poor liturgical practice and fails to give proper reverence to the individual elements and is like taking your breakfast, lunch and dinner, pilling it into a blender and having a large inedible smoothy once a day. |
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| Rose of York | Saturday, 27. June 2009, 12:06 Post #15 |
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Benediction is one the forms of prayer that were abandoned when evening Masses were introduced. Our family used to attend Mass on Sunday morning, then turn out again in the evening for Rosary, Holy Hour and Benediction. It led to me constantly questioning my parents (on the way home) about the monstrance, the long period of silence, the cope and other details. On Sunday mornings we hurried home, so mother could cook the dinner. On summer evenings we ambled slowly home, parents chatting, the children forming their first Catholic friendships with their little peers. That was one benefit of the forties virtually car-less society! My mother once mentioned she missed her evening walk home from church with her pals, that was how she got to know them, when she had moved a long way from her roots. Those friendships lasted half a century, until death. |
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) reason on the Services of the Word thread.
a bit!
, that can only be administered by an Ordained Person. I am unclear from your posts Fortunatus who is conducting the Benediction you instituted.
9:15 AM Jul 11