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| Liturgy - quick questions | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 18. June 2009, 15:43 (275 Views) | |
| Derekap | Thursday, 18. June 2009, 15:43 Post #1 |
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Not a peeve but an irritant. Why should an altar server or another cleric hold the Missal for the Celebrant to read prayers or the Gospel? Particularly when a very young server is obviously finding the Missal very heavy. Surely that is what lecturns are for? In some cases the holder is blocking the view of Celebrant. |
| Derekap | |
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| Poesy | Thursday, 18. June 2009, 19:25 Post #2 |
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Why have some priests dropped saying the prayer of contrition , from Psalm 51:2, before the consecration of the Chalice and Host. 'Wash away my iniquity, cleanse me from my sin'. When the priest then washes his hands to symbolize the great purity and inner cleanliness of those who offer or participate in the Sacrifice of the Mass.  Edited by Poesy, Friday, 19. June 2009, 11:38.
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| Fortunatus | Thursday, 18. June 2009, 21:30 Post #3 |
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Tradition, perhaps, Derek? Custom? Somebody needs a quiet word with the priest. That obviously does not make sense. Oh, wow! That will never do. Does the priest know that for a few minutes he is not the total and absolute centre of attention? That there are people out there who — shock, horror — can't see him! Actually I find I don't need to see my celebrant. I've got an excellent pair of digital hearing aids which means I can hear the word of God quite clearly. The priest in that context is not important except as a channel of communication between God and his people. Of course, if he was dancing up the aisle holding the book of the Gospels aloft or wearing some outlandish outfit to make the whole thing more "relevant" then I suppose it might be important that I see him ... or alternatively take my "custom" to the nearest Catholic church perhaps. |
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| Deleted User | Friday, 19. June 2009, 09:49 Post #4 |
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The Lavabo take place during the Offertory or Preparation of the Gifts and not after the consecration this is also true of the Tridentine or EF mass. If your priest is not doing it he is acting contrary to the instructions in the missal however what often happens is that the priest turns to the side of the alter while the offertory hymn is being sung and performs the lavabo quietly. It is quite common for the whole of the preparation of gifts to be conducted quietly by the priest while the congregation sing a hymn, common practice not necessarily good practice, and quite within the rules. |
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| Deleted User | Friday, 19. June 2009, 09:57 Post #5 |
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The practice of bringing the Missal/sacramentary to the priest at the chair is a long established custom going back long before the current liturgy. I can remember having to hold the book as a child. It is common with smaller children to rest it on the head but usually the person with the book is an experienced server. I have never seen the Gospels being held and you are right the book should rest on the lectern. If a deacon is proclaiming the gospel it is common for the book of the gospels to be processed to the altar and thence to the lectern. At the chair the sacramentry is preferred to the full missal because it is much lighter, in some churches a folder is used which may or may not be suitably adorned. |
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| Rose of York | Friday, 19. June 2009, 10:00 Post #6 |
Administrator
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Does it matter whether the lectern is to the right or left of the sanctuary, if so, why does it matter? |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Deleted User | Friday, 19. June 2009, 10:19 Post #7 |
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It does not matter in the new rite but traditionally the Gospel was read from the right hand side, facing the altar and the epistle was read from the left-hand side, facing the altar however since the changing of the alters things have been a little confused and many texts will refer to the reverse. I was always taught that women sat on the Epistle Side and men on the Gospel side and that the epistles side was on the left because that is the Sinister Side. Also if you are on the continent or in a church not messed about by the reformation or the changes of Vat II you will notice that it was common for the pulpit to be built half way down the right hand side of the nave with a sounding board over the top. This ensured that in the days before microphones the maximum number of people could hear what was being said. There was no problem with adjusting ones position because pews and chairs are a fairly recent addition, largely introduced as a means of raising revenue. |
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| Poesy | Friday, 19. June 2009, 12:02 Post #8 |
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Thank you for explaining Penfold. Another question. Is the Lavado prayer, taken from Psalm 25:6, I will wash my hands among the innocent; and will compass thy altar, O Lord. Douay Rheims. I quoted Psalm 51:2. Wash me thoroughly of my guilt, purify me from my sin. Jerusalem Bible. Which is closer to the prayer of contrition said by the priest. 'Wash away my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. |
| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| PJD | Friday, 19. June 2009, 18:09 Post #9 |
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'Wash away my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.' That is said where I am, the priest bows whilst saying it, and we do not attempt to walk towards the priest with the lavabo until he has obviously finished. It is a reverent, quiet, and moving liturgical practice, even though it takes but a matter of seconds sometimes. PJD |
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| Clare | Saturday, 20. June 2009, 09:29 Post #10 |
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman
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Do you mean the other way round? I guess it depends which way you're facing, but from the persepctive of the punter in the pew, the Epistle side is on the right, and the Gospel side on the left. Edited by Clare, Saturday, 20. June 2009, 09:30.
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S.A.G. My attempt at a blog. | |
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| Derekap | Saturday, 20. June 2009, 13:41 Post #11 |
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You beat me to it Clare! After the Epistle was read the server would then go up to the altar, collect the Missal, carry it down the altar steps, bow to the tabernacle then go and place it on the left hand side of the altar. After the Creed the Celebrant then placed it nearer the centre for the Offertory and Consecration. After Holy Communion the server would then take it round to the Epistle Side for the Communion antiphon and last Collect. The Last Gospel was then read from the respective Altar Card on the Gospel Side or recited by memory. I have used the past tense because for me it is a memory but I do assume the same occurs in current celebrations of The Tridentine Rite of Holy Mass. |
| Derekap | |
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| Deleted User | Sunday, 21. June 2009, 11:26 Post #12 |
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After a little checking I think to avoid confusion with left and right I shall use northe and south. The alter is at the East end the Gospel side is to the north and the epistle side is to the South. However I would like to verify this further because the North door was often refered to in England as the devils door and traditionaly was seen as the side were the pagans entered and were seperated from the Christians. Some one has sugested to me that the Gospel and sermon were proclaimed to those on the North Side to avoid preaching to the converted. As I say this is not verified and I would welcome any enlightenment. |
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| Derekap | Sunday, 21. June 2009, 14:51 Post #13 |
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Many years ago (well before V2) a nearby parish had a full time Sacristan. As the church had in its early days been a Cathedral for awhile the pulpit was on the right hand side and remained so. All other churches (not cathedrals) had their pulpit on the left hand side (Left and Right are as if we are facing the Sanctuary). Or so he told us. |
| Derekap | |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 21. June 2009, 16:30 Post #14 |
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Our parish churcb had the pulpit on the right (as seen from the nave). The parish a couple of miles down the road had the pulpit on the left. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Derekap | Monday, 22. June 2009, 14:44 Post #15 |
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I suppose the exceptions prove the rules! Before the purpose built church in my former parish we used a hall on a full time basis and the pulpit was on the right hand side but it was near an emergency exit and maybe there were practical and emergency reasons. |
| Derekap | |
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4:42 PM Nov 23