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Today's Gospel (Corpus Christi)
Topic Started: Sunday, 14. June 2009, 11:32 (158 Views)
Mairtin
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So he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 'Go into the city and you will meet a man carrying a pitcher of water. Follow him, and say to the owner of the house which he enters, "The Master says: Where is my dining room in which I can eat the passover with my disciples?" He will show you a large upper room furnished with couches, all prepared. Make the preparations for us there,' The disciples set out and went to the city and found everything as he had told them, and prepared the Passover.

Mark 14:13-16

Can anyone explain the significance of that particular passage and the fact that a room was already prepared in Jerusalem?

I've seen several examples of conspiracy theorists using it to claim that the Crucifixion was a set-up but that doesn't stand up to rational scrutiny, the writers of the Gospels would hardly include something that so blatantly gives the game away.

The only real explanations that I've seen are that the incident demonstrates once again the divine abilities of Jesus but I find that a bit nebulous, His divine abilities were more than amply demonstrated by the miracles He performed.

Am I missing something here, is there any particular "perceived wisdom" about this passage?
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Deleted User
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Your post aroused my curiosity Mairtin so I tried to find out more. Unfortunately my research has been disrupted by a little visitor but I did find this by Michael Turton (no idea who he is) Historical Commentary on Mark
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Jesus then commands the disciples:

Mark 14
13: And he sent two of his disciples, and said to them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him, 14: and wherever he enters, say to the householder, `The Teacher says, Where is my guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?' (RSV)

The basic parallel with 1 Sam 10:1-7 should be clear:

1 Sam 10:1-7
1: Then Samuel took a vial of oil and poured it on his head, and kissed him and said, "Has not the LORD anointed you to be prince over his people Israel? And you shall reign over the people of the LORD and you will save them from the hand of their enemies round about. And this shall be the sign to you that the LORD has anointed you to be prince over his heritage. 2: When you depart from me today you will meet two men by Rachel's tomb in the territory of Benjamin at Zelzah, and they will say to you, `The asses which you went to seek are found, and now your father has ceased to care about the asses and is anxious about you, saying, "What shall I do about my son?"' 3: Then you shall go on from there further and come to the oak of Tabor; three men going up to God at Bethel will meet you there, one carrying three kids, another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a skin of wine. 4: And they will greet you and give you two loaves of bread, which you shall accept from their hand. 5: After that you shall come to Gib'e-ath-elo'him, where there is a garrison of the Philistines; and there, as you come to the city, you will meet a band of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and lyre before them, prophesying. 6: Then the spirit of the LORD will come mightily upon you, and you shall prophesy with them and be turned into another man. 7: Now when these signs meet you, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you. (RSV)

Not only is there a parallel in the structure here, but 1 Sam 10:2 even contains a reference to a father who is worried about his son, perhaps a hint from Mark about Jesus the Son and God the Father.
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JRJ

From part of the commentary in The Navarre Bible (Mark 14:12-16):

At first sight our Lord's behavior described here seems quite out of character. However, if we think about it, it is quite consistent: probably Jesus wanted to avoid Judas knowing in advance the exact place where the Supper will be held, to prevent him notifying the Sanhedrin. And so God's plans for that memorable night of Holy Thursday were fulfilled...

Edited to correct a repeated word.
Edited by JRJ, Sunday, 14. June 2009, 18:40.
Jennifer
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Bob Crowley

As far as I'm concerned it's simply part of Christ's divine ability. If I had to organise a function for myself and twelve others, I'd been on the phone, looking for a room, making sure it was booked, checking the price, ensuring it was big enough, making sure there was no seafood for one, if it was licensed etc, etc.

I wouldn't tell a couple of the party to go down to the shopping plaza, meet a bloke they've never seen before carrying a carton of stubbies, to follow him to a restaurant and walk in, only to find the room was already all set up ready to go, for twelve people.

Yet Christ was so certain about it.

I've had a similar incident in my own life. I've mentioned before that the night my father died he appeared in my room. He mentioned a few future events. One night I was driving a cab and happened to be in the suburb called Nundah where he'd died. Now I was frustrated at the time, so I prayed that I might be given some sort of "sign" that what he said was valid. I got this sense I ought to know better, but an hour or so later I pulled up on a rank in the city. Eventually my fare appeared, a bit tipsy, hopped in and said, "Nundah". I asked him whereabouts in Nundah. He said, "Drive and I'll show you." So off we went, drove here and there, and eventually pulled up at the house directly across the road from where my father had died. This was the same night I'd made the prayer an hour or two before. Since Brisbane has over a million people and hundreds of thousands of dwellings, the odds were heavily against it.

The point is that I had free will about my choice of driving, the passenger had free will about when he'd leave the hotel, and get a cab, and which cab he would take. Yet I had what might be called a more than coincidental "sign". Similarly with Christ - the man with the water pitcher had free will, the owner of the room had free will, the disciples had free will about how fast or slow they would walk to the proposed meeting, yet it all came about just as Christ said it would.

That's why I don't discount predestination to some account.
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Derekap
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"Since Brisbane has over a million people and hundreds of thousands of dwellings, the odds were heavily against it".

I wouldn't call it predestination, Bob, I think it was God who ensured you were guided to your destination. Whilst such incidents are not obviously common I am positive do they occur - in general of course not specifically so.

(Incidently, for those of us not versed in the Ozzie lingo, is 'stubbies' another word for 'tinnies' [cans of beer] or cigs or what? I liked the vernacular version!)

Edited by Derekap, Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:55.
Derekap
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Bob Crowley

Derekap
Saturday, 27. June 2009, 15:54
"Since Brisbane has over a million people and hundreds of thousands of dwellings, the odds were heavily against it".

I wouldn't call it predestination, Bob, I think it was God who ensured you were guided to your destination. Whilst such incidents are not obviously common I am positive do they occur - in general of course not specifically so.

(Incidently, for those of us not versed in the Ozzie lingo, is 'stubbies' another word for 'tinnies' [cans of beer] or cigs or what? I liked the vernacular version!)

"Stubby/ies' is lingo for the small bottles of beer which hold about the same amount as a "tinnie". There's also a brand of shorts called Stubbies. But it usually refers to the small bottles of beer.

I'll give you another incident then to make my point about predestination or, if you like, divine manipulation despite our free will. I've related this before on this site also.

About 18 months ago I was arguing with atheists on a google group site. The topic was NDE's (Near Death Experiences). As usual I was getting nowhere so I prayed that I might meet someone who'd had an NDE. I've said my father appeared the night he died, but he was fully dead, and I haven't had an NDE. A couple of days after my prayer "request" I was hanging around a suburb called Boondall in the Maxi Taxi (Van which can carry wheelchairs or 10 passengers) when a "Maxi" job came up on the screen for a suburb called Brighton, typified by an "M" at the end of the line. It was a few kilometres away so I procrastinated, assuming a nearer Maxi would But when it stayed there, I went for it and got the job. It was for a retirement hostel called Eventide.

I eventually found my fare, a middle aged bloke about my age who was just about to give up. He'd only wanted an ordinary cab, and only the glitch in the system reserving it for a Maxi meant that I got to pick him up. He wasn't in good health, which is why he was in Eventide. We'd only been going a couple of minutes when he said "I"m one of those rare people." I asked him what he was talking about, and he said he'd been technically dead for 10 minutes following an operation. Since it was a fair distance to the hospital we had a discussion at some length. But what intrigued me even more was that he went to the same high school as the eldest son of the very same uncle who turned up to tell me my father had died.

So.... despite our free will, the operator reserved the job for me by a mistake, a bloke who only wanted an ordinary cab ended up with me. He'd had an NDE, went to school with the eldest son of the above uncle, and we had about half an hour for a chat. Yet all of us had free will.

I still think there's a certain amount of predestination involved. "I chose you" said Christ, "you didn't choose me."
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Rose of York
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Bob, nothing Jesus did was due to predestination. He is God. He makes his own decisions.
Keep the Faith!

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Bob Crowley

Rose of York
Sunday, 28. June 2009, 14:26
Bob, nothing Jesus did was due to predestination. He is God. He makes his own decisions.
I didn't say Jesus was bound by predestination, but I believe there is an aspect of predeterminism operating in our lives eg.

The man who would be found with the water pitcher.

The man who was born blind so that God's power could be seen at work when Christ healed him.

Judas, the one who was "bound to be lost".

Pharaoh, who was raised up so that God's power could be seen through Moses.

The two disciples on the way to Emmaus, who were "kept" from recognising Jesus.

"Before the cock crows, you WILL deny me three times" (Peter) ... etc.

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