| We hope you enjoy your visit! You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Qualified Catholics? | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 19:38 (1,324 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 16:49 Post #61 |
![]()
Administrator
|
I did not mean priests should be experts in all things, but some green cardigans will be perceived as such. I would say the priest needs to know he has responsibilities in a certain field, and it is up to him to delegate to the right person, not necessarily to he or she who is willing to do every single thing, regardless of competence. A lot of parrots are already over keen on swinging on their perches. |
|
Keep the Faith! | |
![]() |
|
| Ned | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 17:46 Post #62 |
|
It could be worse than that - it might be a dead child ! I remember the shock to the parish, about 35 years ago, in the parish I was then living in. Straight after Sunday morning Mass a little toddler ran straight out the church door and under the wheels of a car. And I can still remember a woman telling me how it had been a little white coffin, that the undertaker had simply cradled in his arms. And the same sort of danger is still to be seen in a great many parishes today. BUT IT IS NOT RIGHT TO HOLD THE PARISH PRIEST TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT SORT OF THING ! All of these Health & Safety issues, all matters of property management, should be dealt with centrally (perhaps for all of England, perhaps for all of Britain and Ireland). It's the way that all the big commercial firms operate, and the CofE too I think. |
![]() |
|
| Ned | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 18:23 Post #63 |
|
Quite so, Rose. But the right person isn't always the Parish Priest. The bishop should be delegating many of these responsibilities elsewhere, to professional people. Overall the Church's portfolio of English property must be worth, well, ... ? If the Irish property portfolio of eighteen Religious Orders is worth around 15 to 20 billion Euros, then say ... ? Edited by Ned, Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 18:24.
|
![]() |
|
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 18:36 Post #64 |
![]()
Administrator
|
Good point, Ned. A former parish priest of our told me, regarding the Disability Discrimination Act, that he received very basic information regarding his responsibilities. He said "I know what I must do, but not how to do it. I could make dangerous mistakes." Being aware I have some knowledge of the subject he asked me to recommend a builder (he was new to the area and did not know which were reputable). I downloaded the appropriate building regulations, the builder came to see me, he went away with a few printed pages. Together we selected and ordered fittings (taps, grab rails, raised toilet seat, flush lever, and door handle). The priest said he could not see why we wanted the toilet door widening, he thought it was wide enough. We showed him the regulations and pointed out that the opening he wanted was narrower than the wheelbase of a standard sized wheelchair. The priest was happy to let me get on with it. Being responsible for the finances and building, naturally he kept an eye on things including cost. A female parishioner went hairless, said SHE is the one who decides these matters. Indeed, she does do practically everything that does not require an ordained priest. The next parish priest maintained the established status quo, and allowed her dictate to him. That is why the handrail for the use of readers is hidden behind a statue, and a very smart ramp comes to a stop at a step! The moral of this story is, people should not be permitted to carry out tasks at which they are not competent. It is our responsibility not to offer to do anything we are not capable of doing properly. We need to acknowledge that it is our priests and in some cases diocesan trustees who will, ultimately, be held liable, so we must be fair with them. A census, identifying skills, would be beneficial. I will have no problem with lay managers so long as they do not think they have no need to utilise other peoples' knowledge. There is a possibility that a Qualified Catholic would try to be Jack of all trades. |
|
Keep the Faith! | |
![]() |
|
| JRJ | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 19:11 Post #65 |
|
In the two US dioceses where I have lived, a census (they were called "surveys") of parishioners' skills and interests are taken annually in every Parish (during a stewardship drive called "Time, Talent & Treasure"). The Pastors I have known make very good use of the professional abilities of the parishioners, while keeping an eye on the money and results ("inspect what you expect"). There are mistakes and disagreements, of course, but for the most part they are small matters that do no permanent harm. Our Parish just replaced the roof on the rectory with money donated by the immigrants (a special collection at Christmas) and with combined Latino/Anglo labor. Must have been a decent job - we recently had several inches of rain over a few days and Father isn't all wet .My personal opinion is that government is too intrusive and this intrusiveness has resulted in a spirit that we can do nothing for ourselves without "experts" to oversee our efforts. The Western world seems to have lost the perspective of trusting the abilities of the individual to conduct a sane and productive life. Surely we Catholics, with the Holy Spirit, can look out for the care of one another and those material goods God has provided for the care of souls? Life is NEVER perfect - mistakes, accidents and tragedies will (sadly) happen. But most persons are reasonably careful and thoughtful about their duties. "SUBSIDIARITY The principle by which those in authority recongize the rights of the members in a society; and those in higher authority respect the rights of those in lower authority." from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life edited to include the definition of subsidiarity Edited by JRJ, Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 19:14.
|
|
Jennifer hubby's dinosaur blog | |
![]() |
|
| Deleted User | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 19:23 Post #66 |
|
Deleted User
|
Based upon your above example I shall only consult people with accredited qualifications, regardless of the colour of their cardigan. After all, how am I supposed to know whose opinion is valid? As it happens there are a wide range of experts in disabled access freely available through the internet. https://login.live.com/login.srf?wa=wsignin1.0&rpsnv=10&ct=1243966570&rver=5.5.4177.0&wp=MBI&wreply=http:%2F%2Fdownload.live.com%2F%3Focid%3DMIE8DOWN&id=260235&lc=1033 being just one. "A census, identifying skills, would be beneficial." Why not just invite tenders and ask parishioners to compete with one another as to who is the best qualified? |
|
|
| Ned | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 20:11 Post #67 |
|
Hi Penfold, No ! For one thing you have your hands full already discharging your duties as a priest according to the order of Melkisadek. Other problems you would have are - first, your own lack of expertise - second, that, from what I've seen, among those parishioners offering you their expertise as plumbers, lawyers, brain-surgeons etc., there will be one or two who are simply fantasists or who are highly unsuitable for other reasons of character. The bishops should be pushing these problems somewhere else. Regards Ned Edited by Ned, Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 20:13.
|
![]() |
|
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 20:21 Post #68 |
![]()
Administrator
|
I make no claim to be qualified, I always go by Building Regulations Part M, and the appropriate British Standard.
Qualified? In some fields, it is a matter of experience and expertise.Competition? The final choice of who does what, rests with the parish clergy, that is one point I am trying to make. Laity don't have to face the music if things go wrong. Example, who is most likely to understand licensing law, a licensee or an accountant? |
|
Keep the Faith! | |
![]() |
|
| Deleted User | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 20:45 Post #69 |
|
Deleted User
|
Rose you are just digging a pit for yourself. You complain when people get qualifications and then demand that the priest chooses people based upon some form of secret system, known only to you, which enables him to discern between, as Ned put it, . I really am confused as to what you thought this thread was meant to accomplish because so far all you have achieved is establishing what most of us already knew. The parish priest is in charge and carries the can. Suddenly all those who are committed enough to get some qualification in parish management are beginning to appeal to me, at least then I could blame the "Expert" instead of ... you tell me Rose, which of the multitude of unqualified well meaning do gooders should the priest choose. Assuming of cause he is capable of exercising his reason and is in possession of the minimum amount of common sense that was required of him in order to take the post of Parish Priest in the first place. I give up , you have insulted me and questioned my ability and integrity. I will not be posting again because I clearly lack the qualifications to make sense out of the incomprehensible. |
|
|
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 21:56 Post #70 |
![]()
Administrator
|
If Penfold has been insulted by me, or if his ability and integrity have been called into question, I was unaware of it. That was not my intention. All I tried to do was offer general opinions and make some suggestions. |
|
Keep the Faith! | |
![]() |
|
| Deleted User | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 22:29 Post #71 |
|
Deleted User
|
Rose you may not have intended offence but you have. Just to clarify, You challenged me directly to state whether,
you also asked, ignoring the fact that I am a priest and i have not only held the post of Parish Priest in civy street but the fact that my current appointment is of comparable seniority and requires a higher level of accountability and scrutiny by external agencies. This disregard for my position is insulting. That you are unaware of this is cause for me to wonder if I should bother remaining in this forum for it brings into question the value of any discussion that I may have in this forum. I shall retire for the evening and consider my position. |
|
|
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 22:34 Post #72 |
![]()
Administrator
|
Oh dear, there was nothing personal intended. I should have written Before taking up his first appointment as a parish priest, would a priest know whether or not he must have someone qualified or competent in such matters? and I doubt whether anybody would with a grain of sense would even want the parish priest to know the food hygiene regulations. |
|
Keep the Faith! | |
![]() |
|
| Fortunatus | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 22:54 Post #73 |
|
I'm with Penfold. I can't see what this thread was designed to accomplish. I'm afraid the only things that spring to my mind are motes and beams. |
![]() |
|
| Deleted User | Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 23:51 Post #74 |
|
Deleted User
|
The problem with this thread is that everybody thinks it's about something different and wires are getting crossed. It went from discussing the merits of a Foundation Degree in Pastoral Mission,via a minor skirmish on the value of paper qualifications, the value of CPD, the necessity of social workers and others having qualifications.to whether a priest should be allowed to do what he was ordained to do or study parish management. It's totally out of hand and it's not surprising that there are misunderstandings. May I suggest that anyone who wishes to pursue any particular aspect of this discussion does so by starting a new thread on that aspect only so we all know where we are. KatyA |
|
|
| Rose of York | Wednesday, 3. June 2009, 00:57 Post #75 |
![]()
Administrator
|
Initially there was one aspect, that of laity deciding to take the degree. The email announcing the course did not specify roles for which the degree would be advantageous. That is my initial approach in a nutshell. |
|
Keep the Faith! | |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic » |







.
9:18 AM Jul 11