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Qualified Catholics?
Topic Started: Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 19:38 (1,325 Views)
Rose of York
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Penfold
Monday, 1. June 2009, 23:18
Actually we are not, Managers we are Priest, Prophets and Kings. but you are right so we shall shut down the parish while the priests goes of on a course while the laity go on moaning that he did not chose them to do the job.
The problem is you can't tell a judge, police officer or local authority departmental manager "I'm not the boss, I am priest, prophet and king." They might lock you up somewhere and it won't be a prison cell.
:rofl:
Keep the Faith!

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:agree:
And the point is the parishioners would still be moaning, " Father 'P' lovley sermon but shame he did not know that you should not use a green handled blade to chop raw meat. O Bother we have to go fifty miles for mass now."


But at least Father 'P' would be in a place where he would be able to exercise his ministry free form the moaning minnies and content in the knowledge that an arch-angel, minor diety or even his great hero the Pope could pop in for tea at any moment.
:yahoo:
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Rose of York
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If I graduate in Pastoral Mission, but have not love, I am a certificate, a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal..
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Rose of York
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Penfold, I doubt whether, if you were a parish priest, anybody would even want you to know the food hygiene regulations. Before taking up the appointment, would you know whether or not you must have someone qualified or competent in such matters? If there were deaths due to negligence of your volunteers, and in transpired that by law you were duty bound to have the services of a person with the necessary qualifications and knowledge, what defense would you offer the court? If through lack of knowledge you failed to register a parish social club for VAT what would be your defense?

Bits of paper don't matter until they matter.

Dioceses should teach priests whatever they need to know regarding civil legislation. Do many dioceses bother?
Keep the Faith!

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PJD

At that rate Rose my sister's attitude "the Church is like a business and run as a business - I fulfil my obligation and go to Sunday Mass - as for anything else.........." (well words from memory) - so it would seem her reflection is justified at least where she is.

PJD
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Rose of York
Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 01:05
Penfold, I doubt whether, if you were a parish priest, anybody would even want you to know the food hygiene regulations. Before taking up the appointment, would you know whether or not you must have someone qualified or competent in such matters? If there were deaths due to negligence of your volunteers, and in transpired that by law you were duty bound to have the services of a person with the necessary qualifications and knowledge, what defense would you offer the court? If through lack of knowledge you failed to register a parish social club for VAT what would be your defense?

Bits of paper don't matter until they matter.

Dioceses should teach priests whatever they need to know regarding civil legislation. Do many dioceses bother?
Rose I am confused. You began this thread questioning the whole business of qualifications
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In plain English: If you don't have the degree you are not eligible for the task. If you don't have the experience please do not apply for the degree course. Parish nuns who have been actively assisting the parish priest for half a century must now compete with QCs (Qualified Catholics).I am all for skills being matched with needs, but is this a step too far? Is it a further threat to the role of the ordained priests and deacons, and the nuns? Will it give more power to the hobby Catholics and enhance the culture of a two tier laity?


and I actually in a post pointed out that in spite of the humour there was a need to be on our guard in this litigious age. In fact I had a good rant on "BOGUS QUALIFICATIONS".
I have also pointed out that, in accord with your other bandwagon, Parish Priests should not be required to spend their valuable time chasing these bogus bits of paper when there are parishioners who could and should accept responsibility.
I now find you quibbling with me over something which as it happens I am well qualified to speak you see in my youth I qualified in Hotel Catering and Institutional Management and I know the food Science behind the Hygiene regulations and the importance of many things not least of which is that most food poisoning is the result of people failing to wash their hands after going to the toilet, but the current rules and regs about use of different coloured chopping blocks and knives, and most of the rules required for a food handling certificate owe more to the book of Leviticus than food science. They are nonsense. That does not mean that I am not fully aware of my legal responsibilities and may I add so are most of my colleagues.
As I say I thought this thread was meant to be a light hearted reflection on the manner in which the need for bogus Qualifications has replaced the need for good old fashioned common sense and experience, but it seems I was wrong, apparently it is a pillory upon which you have decided to mock me. As it happens you need not wonder if " I were a parish priest" I was a parish priest and in my current employ hold the same canonical authority as a parish priest, I know my job Rose and I am well aware of its responsibilities. The next time you open a thread think before you criticise your fellow posters because I am not amused by your change of tack.
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william of bow
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So, does the Church have a policy on continuing formation for Priests (in secular terms - CPD)?

:nono: Priests can't have it both ways I am afraid. Priests ARE the managers of their parish. And whether they wish to 'dirty their hands' with knowing about Health & Safety or aspects of Charity law, or not and being a good administrator (or knowing who to delegate to). It won't cut the mustard when the Priest, the responsible person, finds themselves in the court being prosecuted or sued for some major infringement of said legislation.

Yes, of course I expect my Priest to know scripture, Doctrine, the rubrics of the Mass and all those other priestly sets of knowledge. But I also expect him to be a good manager. A good manager (and I am one myself) does have to know all that 'boring stuff' too.

William

William of Bow

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Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed: a passage which some have considered as a prophecy of modern journalism.
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Check my Blog: http://www.williamonthehill.typepad.co.uk
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 08:05
As I say I thought this thread was meant to be a light hearted reflection on the manner in which the need for bogus Qualifications has replaced the need for good old fashioned common sense and experience, but it seems I was wrong, apparently it is a pillory upon which you have decided to mock me.
Penfold I attempted to debate, not to pillory or mock you. It would be very wrong to do either.

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I have also pointed out that, in accord with your other bandwagon, Parish Priests should not be required to spend their valuable time chasing these bogus bits of paper when there are parishioners who could and should accept responsibility.

My bandwagon is the failure of some priests, to identify and utilise the available skills. Being busy doing the jobs the professionals in the parish ARE KEEN TO DO is no excuse for being to busy to make pastoral visits to people in need. Do we find common ground there?

I do not feel light hearted at all, about this qualifications business. We could end up with a person with a qualification in Pastoral Mission, being regarded as the fount of all knowledge in all fields. If we are to have parish managers, they do need to demonstrate competence.
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Rose of York
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If you are involved in the life and work of your parish, undertaking voluntary or employed work, and want to understand more you may be interested in attending this open evening at Heythrop College . It will be of particular interest to you if you are involved in some aspect of parish work and are looking to gain a formal qualification.

What kind of parish work?

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It has been designed in collaboration with the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Westminster to train lay people who work, either in a voluntary capacity for example in their parish, or who are in paid employment in the Church. Although designed to meet the needs of Westminster , it is open to lay people from other diocese.

Again no mention of what kind of work.

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william of bow
Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 09:50
So, does the Church have a policy on continuing formation for Priests (in secular terms - CPD)?

:nono: Priests can't have it both ways I am afraid. Priests ARE the managers of their parish. And whether they wish to 'dirty their hands' with knowing about Health & Safety or aspects of Charity law, or not and being a good administrator (or knowing who to delegate to). It won't cut the mustard when the Priest, the responsible person, finds themselves in the court being prosecuted or sued for some major infringement of said legislation.

Yes, of course I expect my Priest to know scripture, Doctrine, the rubrics of the Mass and all those other priestly sets of knowledge. But I also expect him to be a good manager. A good manager (and I am one myself) does have to know all that 'boring stuff' too.

William

William and indeed everybody please have the courtesy to read what I have written. I am not at all happy with the way in which this thread has been twisted and used to bash priests. It was meant to be about the unnecessary insistence on qualifications for people who are already qualified by experience and training. As for the on going formation of priests I think you will find that diocese do have a programme for this and one of the reasons so many younger priests are leaving the priesthood is because of the amount of civil admin and management they are increasingly required to do. We are given training and are well aware of our legal responsibilities both canonical law and civil. You might care to look at canon 521 for example or canon 1273 –1289.Canons 1740 &1741 to name but a few of the rules and regulations that a priest must conform to and in order to do so he must ensure that he takes the appropriate training and remains current with the teaching of the church.
If you want this as a serious thread on the role of priests then advertise it as such and continue to post your uninformed and foolish criticisms. This is not what the thread was about and I am more than annoyed at the way it has been hijacked from what was meant to be a bit of light-hearted banter about the folly of Mickey Mouse qualifications and not about questioning the integrity and training of already overworked and hard pressed priests who on the whole take there responsibilities far more seriously than some of you seem to appreciate.
To remind those of you who clearly have not read my earlier posts it was I who pointed out the legal responsibilities of the priests in the first place I have maintained through out this thread an acknowledgment of the need for continuous training and the need top be competent. I am not only annoyed but insulted by the lack of courtesy shown. Joke and banter when it suits you but learn to distinguish between it and questioning the competence and integrity of someone else.
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Rose of York
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Penfold
Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 11:47
It was meant to be about the unnecessary insistence on qualifications for people who are already qualified by experience and training.
I started the thread. It was meant to be about the danger that some people would gain a general qualification in pastoral and then lord it over others who are better equipped in their own fields.

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If you want this as a serious thread on the role of priests then advertise it as such and continue to post your uninformed and foolish criticisms.
I only asked if priests have to undergo refresher training.

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This is not what the thread was about and I am more than annoyed at the way it has been hijacked from what was meant to be a bit of light-hearted banter about the folly of Mickey Mouse qualifications and not about questioning the integrity and training of already overworked and hard pressed priests who on the whole take there responsibilities far more seriously than some of you seem to appreciate.

It was not meant to be a bit of light hearted banter.
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As for the on going formation of priests I think you will find that diocese do have a programme for this and one of the reasons so many younger priests are leaving the priesthood is because of the amount of civil admin and management they are increasingly required to do.

That is my point. Why should he need to be competent in everything? We, the laity, need him for the role for which he was trained and ordained. The priest who gets an experienced office worker to design a form, with boxes for skills offered, pastoral care needed, will soon find out who is able and willing to relieve him of the burden (and it is a burden) of dealing with such matters. The chances are that amongst the parishioners there will be people whose earlier offers of assistance were ignored. I know from personal experience that it does happen.

I am not knocking priests, it has been my privilege to know some very holy, hard working, caring ones.
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Rose of York
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To sum up, and to make it clear I am not priest-bashing.

I see a danger that one person, with a little bit of knowledge in each of many fields, will be perceived to be the expert in catechesis, canon law, building maintenance, listed building consent, accountancy, all legislation affecting a parish, and goodness knows what else. The one who knows a little about a lot might fail to acknowledge that there are others who know a lot about a little.

Take a mundane example. Who will know best when it comes to filling pot holes in the car park - the builder or the one with the degree?
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Rose of York
Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 19:49
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If you are involved in the life and work of your parish, undertaking voluntary or employed work, and want to understand more you may be interested in attending this open evening at Heythrop College . It will be of particular interest to you if you are involved in some aspect of parish work and are looking to gain a formal qualification.

If you are involved in what sort of work? That is not made clear.

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As this programme is built on work-based learning you will already be active in your parish or place of work.

Just imagine the "Situations Vacant" advert in your parish.

Qualifications and experience a pre-requisitie for this responsible and demanding position.

In plain English:
If you don't have the degree you are not eligible for the task. If you don't have the experience please do not apply for the degree course. Parish nuns who have been actively assisting the parish priest for half a century must now compete with QCs (Qualified Catholics).

I am all for skills being matched with needs, but is this a step too far? Is it a further threat to the role of the ordained priests and deacons, and the nuns? Will it give more power to the hobby Catholics and enhance the culture of a two tier laity?

Finally:

Is there a combined degree in

Cyber pastoral support.
Cyber theology.
Cyber-parish management.

?????


;)



Yes you started this thread and where on the completly oposite tack to the one you now claim.

If you had intended a serious discussion, "Debate" you should have started from a less frifalous position and been consistant in your case. You have flip flopped through out this thread demanding that the ordinary catholic does not need to compete with the "QC" (Qualified Catholic) and yet demanding that the priest be bashed for being a poor unqualified manager because he lacks the whit to appoint the people you consider to be the right ones fo the job.
I have consistanty argued the case for the diferential between worth while qualifications and the type of qualifications to which you raised the initial oibjections. As for Lightheartedness again forgive me but what are
"Is there a combined degree in

Cyber pastoral support.
Cyber theology.
Cyber-parish management."
If not an invitation to look upon this topic with a certain degree of humour and light hearted banter.

or your reply to another post.

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I share Fortunatus' misgivings. Those who are qualified may consider themselves to be in charge of the unqualified peasants, blissfully unaware that one will be well versed in this aspect of parish life, another well versed in something else.

Did The Little Flower have a Foundation Degree in Pastoral summat or other? :wh:


and of cause your reference to the parrot on your perch.

By opening a thread on the education of laity and then twisting it to critisising priests for not being trained or educated is quite a step but you made it and I remain insulted and annoyed. Rose you cited the example of food Hygene and I and in the same quote accused parish priests of being poor managers
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Is it possible for a parish priest's education to come to an end the day he is ordained?

I have come across quite a few instances of parishes breaking the law regarding food hygiene, health and safety, disabled access, data protection, safeguarding and alcohol licensing and, for parish clubs, VAT and Corporation Tax. Our priests need a basic understanding of their legal responsibilities. Whatever a parish council wants, in the end the buck stops with the parish priest.


You introduce this accusatory challenge and with it a complete reversal of your previous position in regard to the need for qualifications, started to question the competence and integrity of priests.
You did not wait for an answer to your question you just preceded to the attack and gave food hygiene as one example and yet in a later thread, you made a personal challenge to my competence
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Penfold, I doubt whether, if you were a parish priest , anybody would even want you to know the food hygiene regulations. Before taking up the appointment, would you know whether or not you must have someone qualified or competent in such matters?
I take exception to this because I have been a parish priest and because in my current employ not only do I have the same canonical authority and responsibilities as a Parish Priest but unlike my civilian counterpart I have to justify my existence on a daily and sometimes hourly bases to a secular authority. I do not have a parish of willing yes men I have to win respect and earn the support of my congregation in an environment far less comfortable than the parochial house. In this regard you crossed a line and made a personal swipe at my integrity and me. So in short I am still angry annoyed and insulted. I shall calm down because I know that you have not intended offence but you do need to be careful and consistant.
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That is my point. Why should he need to be competent in everything? We, the laity, need him for the role for which he was trained and ordained. The priest who gets an experienced office worker to design a form, with boxes for skills offered, pastoral care needed, will soon find out who is able and willing to relieve him of the burden (and it is a burden) of dealing with such matters. The chances are that amongst the parishioners there will be people whose earlier offers of assistance were ignored. I know from personal experience that it does happen.
and yet earlier you said,
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Bits of paper don't matter until they matter.

Dioceses should teach priests whatever they need to know regarding civil legislation. Do many dioceses bother?


Talk about the general principles but tread carefully when accusing the particular especially when this particular was one who stated earlier in this thread.
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So while Rose may have used a little humour in the invention of degree titles I fear it is not that far from the day when we will all be carrying a folder of paperwork and certificates around.
In this recession " Bogus" qualifications are a growth industry ...

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PJD


Rose:

I do agree with Penfold's angle on all of this. But I don't think you have visited within this topic the old "green cardigan lady syndrome". If you look at it with that in mind perhaps you will find that in reality you are both in agreement. Same in my case with William - I was coming from a different angle - that of matriculation in fact - but which was not pertinent to what he was saying.

PJD
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Rose of York
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Tuesday, 2. June 2009, 14:50
But I don't think you have visited within this topic the old "green cardigan lady syndrome".
That is one of the main points I tried to make.

Some green cardigans would want to take over moderating this forum because I do not hold a degree in Cyber pastoral support,
Cyber theology, and Cyber-parish management.

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I am all for skills being matched with needs, but is this a step too far? Is it a further threat to the role of the ordained priests and deacons, and the nuns? Will it give more power to the hobby Catholics and enhance the culture of a two tier laity?

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The bishops and parish priests would do well to check up on whom they are appointing. Being known as a person willing to serve on every committee going, progressing up the ladder to trusteeship, is not necessarily an indication of competence. The bishops brought those problems upon themselves.

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I share Fortunatus' misgivings. Those who are qualified may consider themselves to be in charge of the unqualified peasants, blissfully unaware that one will be well versed in this aspect of parish life, another well versed in something else.

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We could end up with Modom, BA (Past Missn) telling the mandated minister to get lost, on the grounds that "You may have authorisation from the bishop, but you need my advice and guidance, your dedication, lifetime experience and humility are no match for my degree qualification.
Keep the Faith!

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