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| Qualified Catholics? | |
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| Topic Started: Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 19:38 (1,321 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 19:38 Post #1 |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 19:49 Post #2 |
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If you are involved in what sort of work? That is not made clear.
Just imagine the "Situations Vacant" advert in your parish. Qualifications and experience a pre-requisitie for this responsible and demanding position. In plain English: If you don't have the degree you are not eligible for the task. If you don't have the experience please do not apply for the degree course. Parish nuns who have been actively assisting the parish priest for half a century must now compete with QCs (Qualified Catholics). I am all for skills being matched with needs, but is this a step too far? Is it a further threat to the role of the ordained priests and deacons, and the nuns? Will it give more power to the hobby Catholics and enhance the culture of a two tier laity? Finally: Is there a combined degree in Cyber pastoral support. Cyber theology. Cyber-parish management. ?????
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| PJD | Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 20:21 Post #3 |
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"must now compete" Compete for what Rose? PJD |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 20:49 Post #4 |
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I forsee strident qualified females stating that they are better qualfied than others, including parish sisters, and insisting that said sisters and other devoted persons must compete for tasks that do not really need qualifications. It depends upon how far this goes. In the secular world,senior managers used to learn by experience. Now there are degrees in equine and canine studies, and golf! Bachelor of Pastoral Mission, liturgical artefacts(sacristan) Bachelor of Pastoral Science, Ecclesiastical Hygiene Technology (senior cleaning ladiy) Master of Pastoral Arts, evangelisation (keeping the notice board tidy) |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Derekap | Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 20:59 Post #5 |
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You forget Rose: DGC Dame of the Green Cardigans. |
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| PJD | Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 22:46 Post #6 |
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I have to go to bed now Rose; but that is nonesense. Competing I mean. Compete for humility; yes. Compete for those sort of titles and jobs - that's not competition, that is status. Are we suggesting uping the greed stakes as well. (laugh) PJD |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 27. May 2009, 23:27 Post #7 |
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It is not nonsense. I have experienced competition for "status in the parish". Such behaviour is not uncommon, what I have witnessed indicates it is on the increase. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| PJD | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 08:06 Post #8 |
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"Such behaviour is not uncommon, what I have witnessed indicates it is on the increase." I am not denying this Rose. What I am saying is that inclinations to this behaviour as you put it, it wrong - or rather a serious imperfection. The only way you can try to counter act it, is to attempt reasonable good example. I will give an illustration of what I mean later as I am only just awake. In fact, just in passing at this moment, this is as far as I am concerned a very good topic. PJD |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 09:19 Post #9 |
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Sadly Rose has a point. In chaplaincy we are hooked into a Performance appraisal system as part of the Investors in People initiative. This initiative was a curse invented to help promote people from within and infects much of British Industry. The problem is, as Rose observes, people used to be promoted from within by virtue of their experience, loyalty, integrity and many other observable qualities. Now they have to compete for training places to learn things from. Consultants and other Gurus who have never worked a proper days work in their lives. Last year some colleagues and myself were required to go on a Listening Skills course, because we had not ticked that box in our 'Performance management Folder’. The fact that I have worked in Mental Health and use to run such courses 15 years ago was irrelevant, there are new ways of listening. Well we went and within a couple of hours the Actors employed to do the role plays refused to continue because we had exhausted their scripts with in minutes, deftly discovering their " Key Issues" which a novice might have taken about an hour to discern. The whole package cost the MOD a small fortune. In the end it was abandoned and we were given our certificates and the box was ticked. This is just one example I could bore you with others. I am all for continues education and looking at things from a fresh perspective but these Mickey Mouse qualifications are making a mockery of true education. You may think this won’t happen in parishes but what happens if there is an accident in the sacristy. What qualifications, what accredited training what bits of paper did the sacristan have. If these things are missing you may find the insurance want pay up or the lawyers will sue for negligence. This is not far fetched; a friend of mine had an accident in his local parish church and was off sick with his injury for over a month. His employer instructed their lawyers to sue the parish for negligence to receive compensation on behalf of my friend and to recover the costs of employing the temporary replacement. The matter was settled out of court but my friend had wanted no part in it and had accepted that he had taken the risk and was not complaining. So while Rose may have used a little humour in the invention of degree titles I fear it is not that far from the day when we will all be carrying a folder of paperwork and certificates around. In this recession " Bogus" qualifications are a growth industry and there are employers and government officials stupid enough to give them credibility. Unfortunately we also have a bunch of people who think that a bit of paper replaces experience and they will brandish their Diploma in Parish management in the face of tried and trusted parishioners and demand employment and elevated status.
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| tomais | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 11:44 Post #10 |
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Insularity usually is illustrated by a halo. Learning comes from an appreciation of what surrounds us and an alanysis of such. Can we learn from the reformed church,( for instance). Having spoken to many at this years Church of Scotland General Assembly- no not the eledres etc but making a point of interviewing many card carrying protestors- many, of all ages, display a dialectic appreciation of the Bible; if only! If only the Roman Catholic attenders were half as well informed- a quarter informed then - and I question- would attendances be in such decline> The Kirks attendances are in decline- but not those so skilled in Biblical appreciation. Oh and by the by- Cardinal keith O'Brien did get a wee round of plaudits on his stand vis a vi sexual discaplines Where is Hethorp College? Tom |
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| PJD | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 13:47 Post #11 |
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“Unfortunately we also have a bunch of people who think that a bit of paper replaces experience and they will brandish their Diploma in Parish management in the face of tried and trusted parishioners and demand employment and elevated status.” Penfold laid out the mine-field of accreditations – in my opinion accurately. However as regards the Catholic world, - quoting from his contribution (as above) – unfortunately this trend not only affects the pragmatics of organisation but more seriously the virtues. It is no accident that humility was regarded by the Saints and Doctors of the Church as being of prime importance; and it is no rarity that we are all plagued by self-esteem/sycophantism within our individual selves. And if we are not plagued so much by that we are plagued by temptations to frustration, gossip, and even anger etc. End of sermon; back to subject. Strictly speaking this is a problem that comes under the jurisdiction of the Bishops (or hierarchy if you like). And they have not been very well served by the laity when, in the past I might add, and in all good faith the appointments they made (governors, advisors and the like especially trustees) have proved in hindsight to contain many persons who let them down. I am thinking of the fiasco concerning SORS, Catholic Hospitals, etc. when lay decisions turned against them. However the sad part is that although one might understand ‘hindsight’, in this case it is (at least for me posting here) almost impossible to figure out how to deal with it. And even sadder that this unfortunate state of affairs filters down from top to bottom infecting the whole system – including education – leaving in my opinion only the humble parish priests unscathed – and it is the evident humility of these that keeps one’s pecker up. Bishops are treated with reverence; priests with affection (is that remark too discriminatory?) As I said before – good subject. PJD |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 15:08 Post #12 |
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The bishops and parish priests would do well to check up on whom they are appointing. Being known as a person willing to serve on every committee going, progressing up the ladder to trusteeship, is not necessarily an indication of competence. The bishops brought those problems upon themselves. A trustee told me the Diocese could not be held responsible if a hyperactive child who was in the habit of running all the way across a car park, went over an unfenced three foot drop, onto concrete, it was the mother's responsibility to watch the child. That trustee did not believe a land owner is bound by law to protect children from danger points that attract them. The trustee had obviously not been trained in the legal responsibilities of trusteeship. The truth is, our dioceses try to save money by using the services of amateurs at the highest level. Professional advice costs far less than compensation. |
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| Quicunque vult | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 17:09 Post #13 |
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I share the concern about paper qualifications and the introduction of a professional class of lay workers (especially when they get their hands on the sacred liturgy). On the other hand, we do need a better educated laity (a vision of Cardinal Newman, that has not been realised), and genuine academic study, short courses etc should certainly be encouraged for those able to pursue them. The courses run by the Maryvale Institute are particularly worthwhile. QV |
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 17:35 Post #14 |
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I also share this concern. Imagine a parish full of professional Green Cardigans A parish is supposed to be a family not a professional organisation
Agreed KatyA |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 18:37 Post #15 |
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In secular affairs, people in the developed world are better informed than ever before. On spiritual matters we get the weekly homily, ten minutes at the most. In rural parishes that have no Catholic schools, how are our young people to learn of our rich Catholic heritage? Who explains to them WHY the Church teaches this, that or the other? How are they to know the difference between the Catholic and Anglican churches? Who explains to them why they should not be taken in by claims that there is "no real difference, their services are more or less the same"? Who is to teach them about the saints? Professionally qualified parishioners will hold meetings, form councils. Who will teach? |
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A parish is supposed to be a family not a professional organisation
9:18 AM Jul 11