Why Are There So Few Vocations?;

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Why Are There So Few Vocations?;; Priests, monks and nuns ever fewer
Topic Started: Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 13:33 (338 Views)
Rose of York	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 15:37 Post #16
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Paduan Thursday, 22. January 2009, 14:16 Secondly, arrangements for more mature candidates to live more independently within the Seminary system - self contained living accomodation, the ability to cook for oneself, etc. I'm sure some men love the idea of never having to cook a meal for themselves for six years, but school dinners (and breakfast and lunch) every day for a man in his 30s or 40s? The almost total lack of real privacy and freedom to relax on your own? Not only mature candidates would benefit from this, but the younger ones too, since they will, eventually, be expected to fend for themselves when they get a parish of their own... It is thirty years since I moved away from the Leeds diocese. The curate in our parish had been a mature entrant. In conjunction with Ushaw College, he was given a special responsibility to prepare mature students for independent living. The students spent some time in our parish, the priest arranged for some of the women to teach cooking, shopping and other household skills to those who had been "babied" by their mothers, because it was seen then that the days of presbytery housekeepers, and communal living for priests, were drawing to a close.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


PJD	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 20:01 Post #17
Posts: 2,423 Group: Members Member #11 Joined: September 26, 2006	Yes - very interesting comments Paduan. Slightly off beat but: The priest, who once focused exclusively on God during the liturgy, now instead faces the people, and is even expected to entertain them. 'expected to entertain'? - I wonder whether this impression is a valid one - not fictious in some, but in the minds of who exactly? Can we isolated the groups falling under this 'label' (a minority?) I don't particularly like clapping - there are of course certain exceptions. But clapping commences obviously a minority start it off. PJD



Rose of York	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 20:51 Post #18
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	PJD Thursday, 22. January 2009, 20:01 'expected to entertain'? - I wonder whether this impression is a valid one - not fictious in some, but in the minds of who exactly? Can we isolated the groups falling under this 'label' (a minority?)QV QV raised the matte of priests being expected to entertain. I have come across that situation. Some years ago, a woman told me she visited a certain church just once a year, on a family anniversary, she much preferred to new priest because he "makes the Mass more interesting." He always had a few words for the servers when they took him the water and the wine, and always had a little chat with the children when they took their pictures to him after the childrens' liturgy. Oh yes he did,he would thank them for the pictures they had taken up the aisle as presents for HIM. The woman who said he "makes the Mass more interesting." was not keen on the previous priest, he never introduced personal touches, and took the Mass too seriously. I doubt whether the woman, a Catholic, grasped the basic purpose of the Mass.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Ned	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 21:13 Post #19
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	Rose of York Thursday, 22. January 2009, 20:51 I doubt whether the woman, a Catholic, grasped the basic purpose of the Mass. You can say that again, Rose. The ignorance of present-day massgoers is appalling. Everyone will readily affirm the Real Presence, but if you can gently ask them the Real Presence of who or what then you will get a variety of answers - the Holy Spirit, Mary etc. And it would be a brave PP that tried to put the record straight. Regards Ned



OsullivanB	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 21:26 Post #20
Posts: 2,203 Group: Moderator Member #205 Joined: August 14, 2008



Rose of York	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 21:41 Post #21
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	OsullivanB I think it is still on topic. We have illustrated a problem with the current state of priesthood in some dioceses. If a priest is messing about with the Mass, what is there to attract a man to priesthood? Where there is widespread ignorance, among the generation who are parents, who will teach the young people the meaning of the Mass? Not every Catholic child goes to a Catholic school, so if there is no school to teach them and their parents know little about Catholicism, what would attract those boys to becoming priests with the privilege of offering Mass? A dedicated holy priest inspires young people. He will never know how many youngsters had the first inkling of a vocation due to to his example.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


PJD	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 21:50 Post #22
Posts: 2,423 Group: Members Member #11 Joined: September 26, 2006	"QV raised the matte of priests being expected to entertain." That raises another bit of psychology - this time directed towards the priest as apart from the congregation. Why would a priest assume, in the first place, that he was expected to 'entertain? PJD



John Sweeney	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 23:06 Post #23
Posts: 1,853 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	Paduan makes two very sensible suggestions which I think would help especially as it comes from one who know the system. I wonder too whether 6 years is needed? Perhaps it is but in the secular world there are only a few professions with that length of training. Would it be too radical for us to consider short term commissions such as the armed forces have? Why does the priest hood have to be for life? I appreciate that we have always thought of it as a lifetime vocation but I think the idea of some men serving , say a 9 year priesthood before returning to "civvy street" would have real benefits regardless of priest shortage. John



Quicunque vult	Thursday, 22. January 2009, 23:12 Post #24
Posts: 484 Group: Members Member #86 Joined: May 18, 2007	PJD The problem arises from priest facing people. Once that happens, whatever the words of the Liturgy say and whatever the rubrics say, there is the beginning of an expectation of a relationship that goes well beyond priest leading people to God. A relationship that is partly dependent on the personality of the priest. Hence the beginnings of the pressure to respond, and ultimately to entertain in a most inappropriate way. The problem arises at the very beginning of Mass. Instead of kneeling before God begging forgiveness as an unworthy sinner as in the Extraordinary Form, in the Ordinary Form, the priest greets people, sometimes in the manner of a radio or TV compere. Even when this is done in the most dignified fashion, the present English mistranslation "and also with you" of the Latin "et cum spiritu tuo" gives the wrong impression - the people respond to Father Joe instead of the priest (whoever he is) standing in persona Christi capitis. To bring this back fully on topic, the significance is that while many holy and worthy men may be OK about offering the Sacrifiice of the Mass, they may baulk at entertainment, especially when they cannot hope to compete with Father Ted's brilliant show in the next parish. This is one of the most urgent reforms needed in the Church. QV



Rose of York	Friday, 23. January 2009, 00:11 Post #25
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Quicunque vult Thursday, 22. January 2009, 23:12 To bring this back fully on topic, the significance is that while many holy and worthy men may be OK about offering the Sacrifiice of the Mass, they may baulk at entertainment, especially when they cannot hope to compete with Father Ted's brilliant show in the next parish. This is one of the most urgent reforms needed in the Church. In the case I mentioned of the woman who preferred "the new priest's Mass" to "the other priest's Mass" she put the lack of personalisation down to the previous parish priest being shy. He was offering Mass properly, that was why he did not try any personal stuff during Mass.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


PJD	Friday, 23. January 2009, 08:51 Post #26
Posts: 2,423 Group: Members Member #11 Joined: September 26, 2006	QV Thank you for that reply and exposition. It would seem that the psychologies of both 'priest' and 'congregation' conspire with another to bring about the effect [I use the word conspire in the spiritual sense] PJD



Gerard	Friday, 23. January 2009, 09:17 Post #27
Posts: 3,124 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	I prefer the priest facing the people. I prefer the arguments in favour of that. You know them. I cant be bother going round that particular circle again. V2 was convened because the church had got stuck in the 1500s and had lost touch with the people. Before that, and since, the world has been evangelising people more than the church. This is the problem that V2 was trying to address. It was a good start. Trouble is it stoped. And now seems to be even going backwards. Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


Quicunque vult	Friday, 23. January 2009, 22:33 Post #28
Posts: 484 Group: Members Member #86 Joined: May 18, 2007	Gerard Your personal preferences, or mine, are neither here nor there. It is the tradition from Apostolic times - way before the 1500s - that is important. The arguments for facing the people are surprisingly thin. Incidentally, I would recommend you read Eamon Duffy's books "The Stripping of the Altars" and "The Voices of Morebath" citing considerable evidence about the vitality of Catholic life and belief among the ordinary people on the eve of the so-called Reformation - a very different picture from the one painted by protestant propagandists who influenced the historians for so long. Now that we are further away from Vatican II, we are getting a much better perspective of what it did and didn't do. We cannot blame Vatican II for the failure of the liturgical reforms, since (as in other fields) they did not reflect the letter or the (true) spirit of the Council. Similarly, it would not be fair to blame the Council (as distinct from the purported implementation of its "spirit") for the catastrophic decline in vocations in recent decades. QV



John Sweeney	Friday, 23. January 2009, 22:46 Post #29
Posts: 1,853 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	Perhaps a little off topic but why should antiquity be regarded as making a practice right? John



Rose of York	Saturday, 24. January 2009, 02:17 Post #30
Administrator Posts: 14,560 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Quicunque vult Thursday, 22. January 2009, 23:12 To bring this back fully on topic, the significance is that while many holy and worthy men may be OK about offering the Sacrifiice of the Mass, they may baulk at entertainment, especially when they cannot hope to compete with Father Ted's brilliant show in the next parish. This is one of the most urgent reforms needed in the Church. Any man who is prepared to turn his back on a God given vocation, knowing churches are closing down due to priest shortage, and some people need to be away from home for over three hours to get to Mass once a week, could do with going on retreat, to pray that God will show him whether is is bettter for some people to have no Mass at all than for them to have Mass with the priest facing the people. I would go so far as to say such a man is a big selfish baby, depriving people of the Mass and sacraments. I feel strongly about this because priest shortage affects me and mine. Once a week there is one Mass within fifteen miles of my home.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


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