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| Why Are There So Few Vocations?;; Priests, monks and nuns ever fewer | |
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| Topic Started: Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 13:33 (336 Views) | |
| OsullivanB | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 13:33 Post #1 |
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I have in mind the developed world. Poorer countries do not seem to have quite the same problem. Surely, the fact that church attendance is in decline doesn't account for the fall in numbers. Those pursuing a vocation would presumably mostly have been the most committed and the most committed presumably continue to go to church. The potential candidates surely have not lapsed. If this has any truth, then we need to look for other causes for the decline. Rose, in another thread says that priest ask little. Maybe the time has come when they are given so little that the task seems impossible. After all, secular priests do not take a vow of poverty nor are they necessarily called to such a life. Perhaps the loss of authority has something to do with it. Perhaps the fact that junior seminaries are no longer the poor boy's best chance of a decent education is relevant. Perhaps the scandals have tainted the priesthood in some people's eyes. I don't know. But if we don't fearlessly try to identify the causes of the decline we will be unable to address them. |
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| John Sweeney | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 14:17 Post #2 |
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O'sullivanB You raise an important issue. We have discussed this to some extent on other threads and many theories have been advanced ( and no doubt will be again now you've posted this!). To some extent the arguments so far, as always , mirror our individual prejudices from those who blame the modern liturgy and everything associated with it to those who think married priests, or women, or both would provide the answer. I would like to suggest one problem which I think is a factor. I think we in the Catholic Church invest "vocation" with a mystical aura that puts all but the most single-minded individuals off. People who are committed Catholics but who don't necessarily feel they are being "called" hesitate from applying for the priesthood because they are completely unsure that their inclination towards the priesthood is worthy of being called a vocation. I am sure that there are many such people who could give sterling service if only they were encouraged to apply. In fact, I think a priesthood made up of such people would probably be a healthier organisation than one made up of those who believe themselves called specifically by God. John |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 16:21 Post #3 |
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Perhaps the confusion over authority has something to do with it. I am all for parish priests taking advantage of the expertise of parishioners but some people think the priests have to do what the committees and councils tell them what to do, in matters of liturgy, property and finance. It is not so. The parish priest is the final authority in all matters pertaining to the parish. I see OSullivan's point regarding education. Long ago, my grandmother saved the wages of her first three sons, determined to raise the money to send one of her children to grammar school. Any one of her sons could have gained an education if he had set off on the path towards priesthood. Scandals? Would that deter a man who has a genuine vocation? I doubt it. My gut feeling is priests don't know whether they are coming or going, too many chiefs are trying to control the indians. In some places clergy morale is low, it is for the bishops to take control and cllarify, for our benefit, just what functions and authority are reserved to the ordained clergy. |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Gerard | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 17:01 Post #4 |
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In rich countries the priest is poor. In poor countries the priest is rich. = shortage of priests in rich countries and glut of priests in poor ones. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 17:30 Post #5 |
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The cry goes up "Where would the money come from, to give priests more money?" Simple. It would come out of our pockets. People who say we cannot afford this, that or the other go to Mass, then drive off to the restaraunt for Sunday dinner. We CAN afford to give them a reasonable standard of living. I would not say they are poor, with free housing, utilitiy bills paid, and £100 per week pocket money, but they buy their cars out of that. How is a priest to provide for his own housing on retirement which can come at any time if illness strikes? Some of them finish up in tiny council flats. They deserve better. Nobody complains if the parish spends money on a painting or statue, but they moan about providing for the necessary facilities for parishioners and they would moan if they were asked to find another £100 for the priest. Typical parish, about 250 people, it would take less than 50 pence extra her person per week. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Derekap | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 19:17 Post #6 |
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I remember days when priests (like their parishioners) had to walk , cycle, or use the bus. Cycling on a frosty night or in rain or snow and strong winds a few miles along badly lit and often unlit roads to a dying person was no fun. Then back to the rectory and up at seven to offer Holy Mass at half-past, having fasted from Midnight. Sometimes, and I heard this from priests themselves, the dying person was sitting up in bed having recovered. I have also heard that neighbours or friends or relatives called the priest because a husband was beating-up his wife and when the priest got there the victim would turn on the priest for interfering. Very few priests indeed had cars in them there days. Their problems today are certainly different. ********************** There is something to be said for having over mystified a Vocation for the priesthood and probably the pressure of keeping-up with the O'Briens for having priests in the family, which may not be so keen these days. Occasionally it has been mentioned we all have a Vocation - whether it be a supermarket check-out cashier or chairman of a company. Also, so long as priests behave themselves (or not found out), they are rarely unemployed. |
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| OsullivanB | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 21:17 Post #7 |
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I remember the days when priests had curates and housekeepers. Now I see mostly lonely middle-aged or old men. And a pint of beer was less than 10p. Edited by OsullivanB, Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 21:59.
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| Rose of York | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 21:31 Post #8 |
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Who wants to end up like that? Turn out to members of your family (your parish), share their grief, support them through it, go home to the presbytery, close the door. You are alone. Get the flu. Vomit, nobody there to make you a nice hot drink. Clean it up yourself, even if you are in a fever. Not good is it? If a town has two or three parishes, each with one priest, why can't the priests live together? The parishes could share the costs of a housekeeper, even if he or she only came in during daytime. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Quicunque vult | Wednesday, 21. January 2009, 22:58 Post #9 |
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Men make great sacrifices to become priests, to serve the Lord. But over recent decades, there has been a clericalisation of the laity and a laicisation of the clergy. In other words, priests no longer have the "special" status (that's not the right word, but it's late and I can't think of a better one) they once enjoyed. Lay ministers can now distribute Communion, read the Liturgy of the Word, and say the bidding prayers. The priest, who once focused exclusively on God during the liturgy, now instead faces the people, and is even expected to entertain them. At the same time, the priest has to undertake an increasing burden of administrative chores, which could well be undertaken by the laity. I wonder what St John Vianney would make of the present role of the priesthood? Not a very inviting prospect, so we should thank God for those priests who, despite these hurdles, heed His call. Liturgical renewal and urgently needed re-catechisation of the faithful will be the solution, but it's going to a long haul. We are already seeing the first fruits. QV |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 22. January 2009, 00:46 Post #10 |
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As a child I knew the priests visited all sick persons in the parish, we used to see them on First Fridays, walking with a pyx rounf the neck. We saw them as caring fathers. All Catholics knew it was acceptable to bow the head, but not to speak to the priest when he was carrying the Body of Christ. I would prefer a priest out amongst his parishioners, and parishioners doing the adminstrative work, that the current situation of parishioners going out to the sick people because the priest is busy in the office, sometimes struggling to come to grips with tasks for which he is not equipped and legislation he does not undestand. |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Bob Crowley | Thursday, 22. January 2009, 07:39 Post #11 |
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We would need to compare this situation to that of the Protestant pastors, who in many cases are doing a sterling job, though in many cases married. I was going to post a couple of pages from a comment by a Chinese pastor who was actually writing about Ecumenism in China between Protestant and Catholic Churches. But I decided to condense his main points. I used China because it has the fastest growing Christian population in the world. His comments included - "Ecclesiastically, the Catholic Church has not been active in evangelical works and many limitations to Church growth come from the structural nature of the Church itself. Its weak points are rooted in the inner-looking tendency of its mission which keeps it from effective communications with the different aspects of the society." He said a bit about how the Pope's office can be misconceived, but that was more to do with Chinese culture. "On the other hand, in the eyes of Protestant pastors, the Catholic Church in China has a number of very particular and great merits or advantages. Its Priesthood is very firm. It maintains a reasonable distance from the secular society and retains relative independence in the world of diverse and competing spiritualities. It is a Church based on Doctrines and it is a Sacramental Church too." "The Protestant Church in China The evangelical “Mass” movement is spreading the Gospel fastest among the Chinese at nearly all levels of society....." But what are the weak points of the Protestant Church in China? I think there are the following four points: 1. There are no authorities for doctrines or standards for the interpretation of the Faith.... 2. The Sacraments have become superficial due in large part to the extreme nationalism or identification with particular subgroups ............... 3. The “Mass Movements” have no doctrines with the result that while there are more believers, there is a decreasing sense of the Sacramental and Doctrinal elements from universal Christianity..... 4. The top leadership of the TSPM/CCC lacks ecclesial nature, and therefore has little or no spiritual and sacramental or even Kerygramatic basis................ In other words, the Mass Movement was most successful in evangelising, but the Catholic Church had the best sacramental and doctrinal statements. Hence the Church, to be successful, needs to focus less on "Vocations", which tend to be inward looking (eg. the meditating orders, clerical centrality) and instead train laity to carry out evangelism but with a strong emphasis on church sacraments and doctrines, so that when the lay evangelists make a doctrinal statement, it is at least correct. |
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| Gerard | Thursday, 22. January 2009, 09:49 Post #12 |
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I think John was correct in his opening post when he said we all tend to put forth our own prejudices. Here are mine: God is removing the oversupply of priests in order to force a change to a more active laity. A laity that believes in its Baptism as Priest Prophet and King and acts upon it. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 22. January 2009, 13:52 Post #13 |
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Some dioceses encourage parishes to select a specified number of people to attend courses in evangelisation. We ALL need to learn, not just an elite few. I should do evangelise, when the opportunity presents itself, should I call for the assistance of one who is "picked for the team"? 
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Paduan | Thursday, 22. January 2009, 14:16 Post #14 |
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A subject on which I can speak from a small amount of experience (!)... As many probably know I deferred my entry into Seminary because I found that I simply wasn't spiritually ready enough to go forward into the Seminary environment. One aspect of that lack of readiness was my experience of life up to that point. We all live in a consumerist society where we all get what we want when we want it and we're all very happy thankyou with our standard of living. We all really love the independence that our materiel wealth allows us. Now, the problem arises when a mature candidate considers entering training for the priesthood, as more and more seem to do as vocations fall away from men of school leaving age. (The average age in Seminary these days seems to be early-30s) Giving up one's independence is much harder when done as a 'mature candidate'. There's an adult lifetime of custom and habit to break: one's own house, freedom to come and go as you please, financial security, etc. It's all very well saying "well that's the price you accept when you choose to start training" but what if it's a personal step-change that is too daunting for some or gets just enough in the way to prevent someone from choosing priesthood as an option? Bear in mind that 6 years of training is required in the pretty cloistered environment of a Seminary. One lives, eats and breathes entirely within that system - designed, it must be said, as preparation for the experience of priests living in small communities within a single presbytery, something that simply doesn't exist now: most priests live a solitary self-sufficient life. If one, as a mature adult, is the right sort of person to live in that solitary life (I am), then that six years of living hand-in-glove with one's teachers and fellow seminarians, in to all intents and purposes a boarding school, can be a daunting prospect. After all, it's not as if the candidate is likely to have just left a communal family environment (parental home). Perhaps it's partly the practical aspects of seminary training that put off some candidates. Perhaps also, it's the fear of what might happen if a mature candidate leaves a good career and finds after a few years that he's not cut out for the learning involved? It can be very difficult to return to a professional career after several years out. I have a couple of suggestions that might ease these sorts of transitions. Firstly, mature candidates could be offered at least a measure of remote learning: perhaps two or three years of learning from home with weekends at the Seminary, in the same way than Permanent Deacons are trained? I know I would have jumped at the chance and that would significantly ease the transistion, especially if one has already committed oneself to a significant amount of learning. Secondly, arrangements for more mature candidates to live more independently within the Seminary system - self contained living accomodation, the ability to cook for oneself, etc. I'm sure some men love the idea of never having to cook a meal for themselves for six years, but school dinners (and breakfast and lunch) every day for a man in his 30s or 40s? The almost total lack of real privacy and freedom to relax on your own? Not only mature candidates would benefit from this, but the younger ones too, since they will, eventually, be expected to fend for themselves when they get a parish of their own... These may seem like very small practical matters in the grand scheme of things, but believe me, they take on a disproportionate significance when you're on the cusp of packing your bags and stepping through those big wrought iron gates... Perhaps the Church authorities need to consider that the changing demographic of new seminary students towards mature candidates means that Seminary environments need to change to accommodate the very different needs and concerns of these candidates. Let's start with remote learning - give me that now and I wouldn't be here in front of my computer: I'd be up to my eyes in text books and essays. Then, when that stage is complete, lets give the mature, part trained, candidates self-sufficiency and, in effect, a relevant training for life in a presbytery in today's world... Maybe then we'll persuade more candidates to take the plunge? |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 22. January 2009, 15:34 Post #15 |
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Very interesting comments Paduan! |
| Derekap | |
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