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| The Second Coming; Judgement and Hell | |
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| Topic Started: Monday, 25. May 2009, 10:33 (237 Views) | |
| Poesy | Monday, 25. May 2009, 10:33 Post #1 |
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On Ascension, I take it that in an important sense, the clock begins to tick until Our Lord returns again. That then, is the final judgement, as I understand it, but what is the immediate and intermediate judgement of everyone dying in the past, up to the final judgement. Also in the 'New Heaven and Earth' will there still be a Hell ? I would be interested on peoples views on that. |
| Domine Jesu, noverim me . | |
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| Ned | Monday, 25. May 2009, 18:23 Post #2 |
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It doesn't answer your question, Poesy, but I would mention Saint Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, chapter 4 -Saint Paul does tell us to comfort one another with these words - and I always find great hope and comfort in them. Christ has died and risen - now those who die in Christ are asleep. Edited by Ned, Monday, 25. May 2009, 18:24.
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| Powerofone | Monday, 25. May 2009, 19:44 Post #3 |
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4:17 has often been used by Protestant fundamentalists to say that the "elect" (i.e. anybody in their particular sect) will not have to endure the curses upon the opening of the seven seals. There will be a "rapture" and they will be snatched away unlike the rest of humanity who will have to endure the torments on earth. The Catholic posiotion on this is different I think but unclear, like the glorified body bit. |
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| Quicunque vult | Monday, 25. May 2009, 21:29 Post #4 |
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Those who die before the Last Judgement will face the particular judgement - heaven or hell, or perhaps for many a time in purgatory before going to heaven. God does not pre-ordain anyone to hell - that is a Calvinist belief. But those who in disobedience reject God's grace and commit mortal sin may suffer for all eternity. Our Lord spoke of hell as the place "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mk 9:48). Judgement is, though, a matter for God. We cannot tell within the limitations of human reason and imagination how he will combine infinite justice with infinite mercy and love. QV |
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| Joe Valente | Monday, 25. May 2009, 22:30 Post #5 |
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Sorry folks, but I just cannot resist this : Having read the extract from the letter of St.Paul 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 4:17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. I am a little concerned and hope that I am not one of the living. If I am and I hear that cry, call and trumpet I shall drop dead from fright and then will have missed the rising and then miss the net that catches the living. Quite a predicament ! |
| What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul | |
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| Derekap | Tuesday, 26. May 2009, 11:06 Post #6 |
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I am sure, Joe, Almighty God will not leave you behind, rest assured "You'll be in that number" when the Saints go marching in!! |
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| Joe Valente | Tuesday, 26. May 2009, 19:44 Post #7 |
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"I am sure, Joe, Almighty God will not leave you behind, rest assured "You'll be in that number" when the Saints go marching in!!" Even allowing for the fact that I don,t like jazz 
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| What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul | |
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| Derekap | Tuesday, 26. May 2009, 20:32 Post #8 |
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Do you prefer an organ or geetars? |
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| Joe Valente | Tuesday, 26. May 2009, 20:50 Post #9 |
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Neither but give me the tinkle of the glass and the drip drip drip from the optic and I will play the ould triangle 
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| What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul | |
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| Derekap | Tuesday, 26. May 2009, 21:04 Post #10 |
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Triangles together with Cymbals and/or Tambourines are often the musical accompaniment in Coptic Orthodox Churches. |
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| Deleted User | Tuesday, 26. May 2009, 21:19 Post #11 |
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Deleted User
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I think the Lord will let you in if you play the Old Triangle and step it out when he calls a reel. |
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| PJD | Thursday, 28. May 2009, 20:47 Post #12 |
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You might find some reassurance from this Poesy Extracts from the Dogmatic Apostolic Constitution decreed in 1336 by Pope Benedict XII. By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ ……[after purification]…..will be with Christ in Heaven, in the Heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the passion and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and see the divine essence with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision….. Moreover, by this vision and enjoyment the souls of those who have already died are truly blessed and have eternal life and rest. Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment. And after such intuitive and face-to-face vision and enjoyment has or will have begun for these souls, the same vision and enjoyment has continued and will continue without any interruption and without end until the last Judgment and from then on forever. PJD |
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| Bob Crowley | Friday, 29. May 2009, 05:49 Post #13 |
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This is the verse which the Protestants use to imply the "Rapture", which I think is a load of bunkum. For a Catholic take on the "Rapture", here's one link - http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac1005.asp I believe we're judged almost as soon as we die. I've said before my father appeared the night he died, and at the end gave this almighty scream. As far as I'm concerned he was judged the very same night, and possibly within minutes, of his death. So I think our judgment occurs then. I suppose the Final Judgment is the Great Divorce then, as CS Lewis titled his fantasy book on the topic. At that time, the seal is permanently cast. My own theory about Hell takes a Black Hole as it's role model. In a Black Hole everything is sucked in to vanishing point. I suspect Hell will be condensed in a similar way, so that to all intents and purposes it will be out of sight and out of mind, but horribly real to those within it. Mind you that's only my own opinion. It's not a very pleasant prospect - eternally condemned and eternally forgotten. However I personally suspect humanity has a bit longer to go yet. My old pastor thought God intended to drive us off the planet. If I consider we are already mucking about with space travel, computers, artificial intelligence, robots, space medicine and in my opinion, the real means of travel, quantum teleportation, whilst at the same time setting ourselves up for enormous trouble, I have no real difficulty believing it. Either the universe is just one big backdrop for a tiny planet or God put it there with the intention we'd explore it one day. But again that's only my opinion. I certainly won't be going anywhere. |
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| PJD | Friday, 29. May 2009, 06:43 Post #14 |
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"My own theory about Hell takes a Black Hole as it's role model. In a Black Hole everything is sucked in to vanishing point. I suspect Hell will be condensed in a similar way, so that to all intents and purposes it will be out of sight and out of mind, but horribly real to those within it. Mind you that's only my own opinion. It's not a very pleasant prospect - eternally condemned and eternally forgotten." Actually, in figurative terms, this is not so far away from Catholic metaphysics as one might think. A black hole is a physical reality from which nothing can escape - or get out of. Their pain (or one of their pains perhaps the greatest) is that of frustration i.e. they cannot overcome the power that prevents their release. Imagine everyone skipping about the universe having the ability to overcome gravity, and anyone left on earth being contained within a new environment that renders its escape-velocity as an impossiblity. PJD |
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| Derekap | Saturday, 13. June 2009, 17:10 Post #15 |
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How could we be happy in Heaven if we were aware of the sufferings in Hell and perhaps knowing some of our loved ones may be there? I think selective amnesia will be prevalent. |
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2:35 AM Nov 25