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Cohabitees receiving Communion
Topic Started: Friday, 2. January 2009, 13:47 (874 Views)
Mairtin
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Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 15:24
Mairtin,

Why move the goalposts? Why not deal with the case in hand?
How am I moving the goalposts? You and Clare are insisting that anybody who is co-habiting is in a state of sin, I'm disagreeing with that and giving an example of a situation where I don't think one of the parties is in a state of mortal sin. Why don't you just explain how I'm wrong in that conclusion?
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Rose of York
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Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 13:47
Giving Holy Communion to someone whom he knows not to be in a state of grace is one of the worst things he could do. Instead of preparing the co-habiting couples for marriage and full participation in the sacramental life of the Church he is sending out a message that Canon Law doesn't matter, that Sin doesn't matter, that HE condones the co-habiting and sinning and that receiving Our Lord in a state of mortal sin is ok - all of which are so very wrong.
Hang on there, if two parishioners are living together, unwed, how do the other parishioners know the pair are sinning? Have we got around to fitting them with sexometers, so we can record what they do and when?

"Bless me Father that couple two doors from me have sinned. They have broken the sixth commandment ten times since my last confession."

Spare us from parish gossips who have nothing better to do that observe who does and who does not receive Holy Communion.
Keep the Faith!

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PJD


"Hang on there, if two parishioners are living together, unwed, how do the other parishioners know the pair are sinning?"

You don't unless you are an angel flitting around the house. And even then Angels would not.......

PJD
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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Friday, 2. January 2009, 17:58
Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 13:47
Giving Holy Communion to someone whom he knows not to be in a state of grace is one of the worst things he could do. Instead of preparing the co-habiting couples for marriage and full participation in the sacramental life of the Church he is sending out a message that Canon Law doesn't matter, that Sin doesn't matter, that HE condones the co-habiting and sinning and that receiving Our Lord in a state of mortal sin is ok - all of which are so very wrong.
Hang on there, if two parishioners are living together, unwed, how do the other parishioners know the pair are sinning? Have we got around to fitting them with sexometers, so we can record what they do and when?

"Bless me Father that couple two doors from me have sinned. They have broken the sixth commandment ten times since my last confession."

Spare us from parish gossips who have nothing better to do that observe who does and who does not receive Holy Communion.
From Mairtin's post:

Quote:
 
Apart from the rubrics of the Mass he willingly gives Holy Communion to couples whom he knows to be unmarried but living together - he has publicly declared that nobody will be turned away from his Church or his altar. Should I or somebody else be reporting him to the Bishop for that?


Now perhaps you'll see what I'm getting at and give a less facetious reply?

;)
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Rose of York
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Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 18:32
Now perhaps you'll see what I'm getting at and give a less facetious reply?

;)
Patrick my reply was not facetious. We often read, on forums, condemnations of people who are known to be living together and have been seen receiving Holy Communion. We should have better things to think of at Communion time, than other peoples' perceived sins. My post was not about what Martin had written about one particular priest.
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Friday, 2. January 2009, 18:40
Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 18:32
Now perhaps you'll see what I'm getting at and give a less facetious reply?

;)
Patrick my reply was not facetious. We often read, on forums, condemnations of people who are known to be living together and have been seen receiving Holy Communion. We should have better things to think of at Communion time, than other peoples' perceived sins. My post was not about what Martin had written about one particular priest.
Sorry, Rose.

But my post was concerned with that one case that Mairtin referred to, where the cohabitee is receiving Holy Communion from a priest who, with it being public knowledge, still administers Holy Communion to that person.

Obviously, at Communion we have far better things that should occupy our minds, but outside of which, and of Mass, the matter needs addressing.
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Mairtin
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Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 18:46
But my post was concerned with that one case that Mairtin referred to, where the cohabitee is receiving Holy Communion from a priest who, with it being public knowledge, still administers Holy Communion to that person.
But I didn't say anything about the priest's knowledge of the couple's sexual activities (if any).

Your argument was based on the assumption that co-habiting = having sex = mortal sin
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Derekap
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Regular and open giving of Holy Communion to a couple who are committing a sin is one thing. There can be spontaneous occasions where to refuse publicly could cause a disturbing scene which would be very unpleasant and certainly irreverend. In the best sense the communicant could have been to Confession and made peace with Almighty God. In the worst, to a great extent, it is up to the individual communicant.
Derekap
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 14:59
Quote:
 
I imagine priests often have to give Communion to people they know not to be in a State of Grace, because if the sin is known only to the priest from the confessional, he would violate the seal if he refused to give Communion.


I'm not so sure. The seal of the confessional, as far as I know, is only broken if the priest divulges to another person what was confessed.
No, the priest is not permitted to act on any knowledge gleaned from confession outside of the confession. He would not even be allowed to change a bottle of altar wine if someone had confessed to putting poison in it. He should not even lock his door, if he doesn't usually, after a housekeeper confesses stealing from his room. And he can't refuse to give communion to a sinner whose sin is not in the public domain.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Friday, 2. January 2009, 15:11
Clare
 
How can cohabiting Catholics go to Communion unless they are misinformed about the gravity of the sin?

Patrick
 
Yes, you would be very wise, I guess, to not even contemplate suggesting that they are not necessarily in a state of mortal sin

With respect, I think you both need to refresh yourselves on the three conditions for mortal sin.

To take just one example; a woman is cohabitating with a man with whom she has had children. She now regrets having got into that situation and would like to end the relationship but she is also frightened of the effect on the childen. Her partner can be quite violent so she is terrified of refusing him sex whilst living with him. By continuing the relationship whilst trapped into it by her emotional state of terror, is that woman committing mortal sin?

I know well what the three conditions are.

Such a case as you mention is presumably rare. Or should we assume that all cohabitees who receive Communion are in violent relationships?
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Mairtin
Friday, 2. January 2009, 15:54
Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 15:24
Mairtin,

Why move the goalposts? Why not deal with the case in hand?
How am I moving the goalposts? You and Clare are insisting that anybody who is co-habiting is in a state of sin, I'm disagreeing with that and giving an example of a situation where I don't think one of the parties is in a state of mortal sin. Why don't you just explain how I'm wrong in that conclusion?
I would agree that subjectively one of them is not in mortal sin. But, as I asked before, am I to conclude that any cohabitee going to Communion is in such a situation? And what if the other party - the guilty one - also goes to Communion??
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Emee
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Ah but Clare would he be knowingly committing murder if he didn't change the altar wine, thereby falling prey to a greater mortal sin? Sorry, just me going off on a tangent that's all...
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Rose of York
Friday, 2. January 2009, 17:58
Patrick
Friday, 2. January 2009, 13:47
Giving Holy Communion to someone whom he knows not to be in a state of grace is one of the worst things he could do. Instead of preparing the co-habiting couples for marriage and full participation in the sacramental life of the Church he is sending out a message that Canon Law doesn't matter, that Sin doesn't matter, that HE condones the co-habiting and sinning and that receiving Our Lord in a state of mortal sin is ok - all of which are so very wrong.
Hang on there, if two parishioners are living together, unwed, how do the other parishioners know the pair are sinning? Have we got around to fitting them with sexometers, so we can record what they do and when?
Well, when they produce children every 18 months, it's a good guide!

Besides, except in some circumstances, the Church forbids couples to cohabit even platonically.
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Emee
Friday, 2. January 2009, 23:43
Ah but Clare would he be knowingly committing murder if he didn't change the altar wine, thereby falling prey to a greater mortal sin?
No he wouldn't. Confessional knowledge is effectively for God, not for the priest. That's why he can't give anything away even in court. He does not "know" it himself, as far as anyone else is concerned.

It must be an enormous burden.
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Rose of York
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Clare
Friday, 2. January 2009, 23:42
But, as I asked before, am I to conclude that any cohabitee going to Communion is in such a situation? And what if the other party - the guilty one - also goes to Communion??
You should conclude nothing. Judgement of their sins is for God, and if they confess those sins, between themselves and their confessor.

A person related to me lived with his girl friend before marriage. He says they were celibate. I have no reason to doubt him.
Keep the Faith!

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