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When Is A Protestant Not A Protestant?
Topic Started: Friday, 7. September 2007, 16:44 (762 Views)
OsullivanB

Is it only the reigning one who can never be wrong?
He's the Vicar of Christ today.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Rose of York
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Clare
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 14:29
Rose of York
Tuesday, 28. April 2009, 22:31
Recent popes are also very good at disagreeing with plenty of their predecessors.

And I'm sure you disagree with a fair few of them too, Rose.

Is it only the reigning one who can never be wrong?
Please list the Popes with whom I have expressed disagreement.

Please tell me when or where I said Pope Benedict XVI can never be wrong.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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Clare
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 14:28
Quote:
 
There are many non-Catholics who, in their erroneous way, put Catholics to shame by their way of life.

I know. That is beside the point. They would be even better if they were Catholic.
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I also feel that some non-Catholics may well have been discouraged by the way of life of some Catholics.

Again, that is beside the point. They would be even worse if they weren't Catholic.
Clare all that is nonsense, There are Catholics who use the Church for their own ends. There are people who are not Catholic, could become Catholics with the best of intentions, and find new temptations from their changed situation, for example a woman becoming Catholic could find herself attracted to her priest, struggle with the temptation, fail, tempt him, to the point where he leaves active priesthood, she leaves her husband and children, and they go through a civil marriage ceremony. Would she a better person then than she would have been if she had remained in her previous religion?

Our goodness or badness comes from our actions and ommissions. The Church is here to support me with the Mass, the Sacraments and teaching. My membership of the Church does not alone make me a better person than I would be if I had been raised in a prayerful Methodist home, and lived a saintly life. One cannot say that every convert from another Christian denomination to Catholicism automatically becomes a better person. If that were so, Catholicism would be perceived to be some sort of magic.
Keep the Faith!

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Rose of York
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 15:27
Clare
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 14:28
Quote:
 
There are many non-Catholics who, in their erroneous way, put Catholics to shame by their way of life.

I know. That is beside the point. They would be even better if they were Catholic.
Quote:
 
I also feel that some non-Catholics may well have been discouraged by the way of life of some Catholics.

Again, that is beside the point. They would be even worse if they weren't Catholic.
Clare all that is nonsense, There are Catholics who use the Church for their own ends. There are people who are not Catholic, could become Catholics with the best of intentions, and find new temptations from their changed situation, for example a woman becoming Catholic could find herself attracted to her priest, struggle with the temptation, fail, tempt him, to the point where he leaves active priesthood, she leaves her husband and children, and they go through a civil marriage ceremony. Would she a better person then than she would have been if she had remained in her previous religion?
It's always better to be a Catholic than anything else.

Objectively!

Other religions and denominations have absolutely nothing going for them that cannot be found in Catholicism. And anything they have that is not in Catholicism is wrong.

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Our goodness or badness comes from our actions and ommissions. The Church is here to support me with the Mass, the Sacraments and teaching. My membership of the Church does not alone make me a better person than I would be if I had been raised in a prayerful Methodist home, and lived a saintly life. One cannot say that every convert from another Christian denomination to Catholicism automatically becomes a better person. If that were so, Catholicism would be perceived to be some sort of magic.


They are better off being Catholic, in the long run.

Methodism won't save them. Being nice won't save them.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
OsullivanB
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 14:56
Is it only the reigning one who can never be wrong?
He's the Vicar of Christ today.
Yesterday was today once.

Is there anyone here that agrees with everything that the Pope of the moment says?
S.A.G.

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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Pope Eugene IV, in Cantate Domino
1441
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.
S.A.G.

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Deleted User
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Very confused... :miss: This thread has been transfered from a disscusion on Baptism which I was following with interest and bewilderment.
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ClareTuesday, 28. April 2009, 16:30
Protestant denominations teach error. They are not Christian.


A couple of things for your consideration.

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DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO
12. Before the whole world let all Christians confess their faith in the triune God, one and three in the incarnate Son of God, our Redeemer and Lord. United in their efforts, and with mutual respect, let them bear witness to our common hope which does not play us false. In these days when cooperation in social matters is so widespread, all men without exception are called to work together, with much greater reason all those who believe in God, but most of all, all Christians in that they bear the name of Christ. Cooperation among Christians vividly expresses the relationship which in fact already unites them, and it sets in clearer relief the features of Christ the Servant. This cooperation, which has already begun in many countries, should be developed more and more, particularly in regions where a social and technical evolution is taking place be it in a just evaluation of the dignity of the human person, the establishment of the blessings of peace, the application of Gospel principles to social life, the advancement of the arts and sciences in a truly Christian spirit, or also in the use of various remedies to relieve the afflictions of our times such as famine and natural disasters, illiteracy and poverty, housing shortage and the unequal distribution of wealth. All believers in Christ can, through this cooperation, be led to acquire a better knowledge and appreciation of one another, and so pave the way to Christian unity.


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LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

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Catechism of the Catholic Church
ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82


The long and the short prodestant churches who use the trinitarian baptism are Christian.

As to sacralidge and other matters if grave doubt exixts as to whether a person is baptised then a conditional baptism is offered. As was mentioned by someone in another thread.

Secret baptisms of grandchildren in kitchen sinks is not acceptable for baptisms must be recorded publicly as a matter of church record and to be fare if as parents you failed to impress upon your children the desire to practise their faith and have their children baptised ... what makes you qualified to bring up the grandchild in the faith.. sorry a bit harsh :shovel: but I have been ear bashed by a lot of well intentioned grand parents over the years and this is my gut instinct, though rarely expressed, I value my ears. :tc: I would say however that the arrival of a grandchild does provide a valuable catechetical opportunity and with the parish in support the priest should help the grandparents and parents to reconcile passed differences and build for the future and if in the process the child is offered for baptism then all will be very content. But the child is not a bargaining chip or pawn.

Protestants we may not agree but we are all children of god and one-day hopefully we shall find a path to full communion. Until then we rejoice in our common baptism and pray together for greater understanding and reconciliation. The Eucharist being the goal of unity and not as some may chip in and argue the means of unity.

PS 1388; elected 4 March, 1431; d. at Rome, 23 Feb., 1447. long before the reformation and prodestants, we have moved on a little since then in our understanding of forgiveness and reconcilliation.
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Joe Valente
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Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer was not a Catholic. But I would be very surprised, and disappointed if he were refused admission to Heaven.
What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul
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Mrs.Pogle
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Quote:
 
and to be fare if as parents you failed to impress upon your children the desire to practise their faith and have their children baptised ... what makes you qualified to bring up the grandchild in the faith.. sorry a bit harsh but I have been ear bashed by a lot of well intentioned grand parents over the years and this is my gut instinct, though rarely expressed, I value my ears.

With all due respect, Penfold, each case must be judged on its merits. My children weren't raised in any faith, because I didn't have one until they were in their teens ~ but since then I have tried my best, on a daily basis, to make it a part of their lives, through trying to be a constant witness, and making my home a "domestic church". They haven't come to faith yet, but I believe that through my faith, they have received something of God's grace, and no seed is wasted. I have done the sowing, it's now up to God to water and send forth His light, and I believe those seeds, eventually, will grow. They do ask me to pray for them from time to time, and that's a start!

As to whether Protestants are Christian...I too believe that God sheds His Grace abroad through baptism, but non-Catholics have not received the fullness of Grace. Never-the-less, those who are devout and sincere in their faith and love of God are Christian, IMO, although their knowledge of God through the Sacraments can never be complete outside of the Catholic Church.
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Mrs.Pogle
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 17:35

With all due respect, Penfold, each case must be judged on its merits.
I knew I'd get my ears bashed :footinmouth: , but I was speaking in general and not about the particular. Mrs P you are of cause correct and I pray for you and all grandparents trying to do what is right for their grandchildren.

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Mrs.Pogle
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Penfold
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 17:45
Mrs.Pogle
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 17:35

With all due respect, Penfold, each case must be judged on its merits.
I knew I'd get my ears bashed :footinmouth: , but I was speaking in general and not about the particular. Mrs P you are of cause correct and I pray for you and all grandparents trying to do what is right for their grandchildren.

Didn't mean to bash you with my handbag, Penfold! :handbags: :jester:
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Deleted User
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Mrs.Pogle
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 17:47


Didn't mean to bash you with my handbag, Penfold! :handbags: :jester:
I would, but I'm busy holding my tongue
:handbags:
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Rose of York
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Clare
Wednesday, 29. April 2009, 15:52
They are better off being Catholic, in the long run.

Methodism won't save them. Being nice won't save them.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Catholicism won't save them if they don't heed the warnings of the Parable of the sheep and wolves (its about being nice).

The truth is, Clare, you follow an outfit that is not in communion with Rome and refuses to accept the Second Vatican Council's decree on ecumenism, therefore the views you express about other denominations are not compatible with official pronouncments of the Catholic Church.

I remember with the highest respect my friend, a Methodist lay preacher, who had more faith in her little finger than some people have in their whole beings. At a difficult time in my life she said "Rose, whatever happens in life, hang on to your faith, it is the most important thing you will ever have God will never let you down." She had faith, I am confident it pleased God.

I acknowledge that only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth.
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
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Clare wrote:

"Methodism won't save them. Being nice won't save them."

For us to be uncharitable about them, unfriendly, "sending them to Coventry" wont save them either!!!

Derekap
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Bob Crowley

I used to be a Protestant, and I can assure you that most Protestants are Christian, just as most Catholics are Christian. There are Protestants who think they're Christian, and there are Catholics who think they're Christian, but aren't. If anything, my experience is that Protestants are generally more enthusiastic and sincere Christians on the average than Catholics. They believe in Christ, and to the best of their ability attempt to follow Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit, and that's the definition of a Christian.

I will make one over-riding comment however, which I've mentioned before. My first (Protestant) pastor was also the wisest and most prophetic man I've met. But I also remember talking in his office on one occasion (one of many), in which he made two comments that surprised me.

1. "I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven."

2. "If there was a false prophet, I think he's already been. I think it was Martin Luther. Some of the things Luther said and did weren't very Christian. .... The Reformation was easily the most violent upheaval in church history."

Those are not comments you expect to hear from a Protestant pastor. If I consider that he gave the name "Luther" as his second youngest son's middle name, then sometime in the following thirty years or so he must have had a seachange of opinion about Luther. I recommend "Martin Luther - Adolf Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor" by Peter Wiener for anyone interested in hearing about the not-so-pleasant side of Luther, or just getting a balanced account to the usual whitewash. It's available on the net as far as I know.

He wondered if God was as tolerant of the division of His Church as we are.

He made another comment, "Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church".

I had a vision one night a couple of years after he died, in which he appeared briefly and said, "We're not in heaven. Oh, we're not suffering any pain, so you don't have to worry about that. In fact, it's pretty good. But we're not in heaven."

The night my father in law died I seemed to have a sense that he also had to wait. He was a good man, World War II vet, very Christian, and Baptist. I remember when another good Baptist died I had a sense of his embarassment, as though he was seeing something as it really was. My suspicion was that he was embarassed about his earthly conception of the Catholic Church.

They're Christian. Whether they get through the Pearly Gates however is another question. I suppose God might not be particularly happy about some of the things that have been done in His name. By the way, I think that would include much of the Inquisition, Ultramontanism, and some other aspects of the Catholic Church.

You see, if the Catholic Church had had enough infallible sense to reform itself when complaints were roaring up and down Europe in it's Renaissance hey-day, there probably would never have been a Protestant Reformation. The Protestants aren't the only ones at fault.

Or to quote the old pastor again, "They (The Catholic Church) have done a lot of damage at times."



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