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| When Is A Protestant Not A Protestant? | |
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| Topic Started: Friday, 7. September 2007, 16:44 (766 Views) | |
| Colin2000 | Saturday, 8. September 2007, 22:24 Post #31 |
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Hi Gerry, Yes you are right. No pretence regarding Cranmer putting together a working Liturgy in the Queen's English for the benefit and usage of The Church Established in England by the Monarchy and Parliament! We did not invent anything as far as I know. We used the Catholic Books of the liturgical operation in the Catholick Apostolic Church! This liturgy was put into the Elizabethan English of the time. It has stood the test of time bringing blessings to Christians in it's Church! The Church of England is nothing new other than being a Reformed Catholick Apostolick Church! As you are a Reformed Catholic Apostolic Church as per The Council of Trent! We had to reform the Prayer Book a number of times in the 1500's before we got to the final one of that time in 1662! Culpable Ignorance Gerry? I don't think the Christians in the pew would get much enlightenment regarding this area of Church History. And as far as your research goes here it is all part of our Church History. A good book on this one is 'The Principles of Theology by Griffith Thomas. Forward by J.I.Packer, (Mine is Sixth Edition Revised January 1978), Vine Books, Guildford, London.' Heavy going but spot on on The Thirty-nine Articles in the back of The Book of Common Prayer. Gerry I think that conclusion re the Books of the Liturgy would in fact be in Latin. That was one of the reason given rightly or wrongly for The English Reformation! In the same way The Lectionary was also in Latin hence King James Version of The Bible Authorised by King James as the one to use on a Sunday morning! An aside, if the Knox Bible, (Geneva, if my memory serves me right), had not had outragous marginal notes in it which wound King James up we would not have had a King James Authorised Version of the Bible, it would have been the Lutheran Bible by Knox! James and Church here appeared to distance ourselves in the English Reform from the Lutherans on the Continent it seems. I do know that the Common Worship 2000 came into line with Rome at the time or soon after Vatican II! All appeared to be coming together then, now pity but a gulf caused by both sides I fear? I have not sat in a Roman Catholic Church recently and not had sight of your Liturgical Office Book. That is why I asked did anyone know whether my book released 2000 was as per yours. The Lectionary is yours too I believe. Enough for now, Colin. PS. By the way we are cross posting so what's different! |
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JESUS IS LORD | |
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| Colin2000 | Saturday, 8. September 2007, 23:05 Post #32 |
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Hi PJD., I think I have answered your points in my post to Gerry. But I value your comment here and it does deserve an answer. I refer to the Churches at Reformation all reforming themselves in various degrees. Or restating their positions on the Faith! Baptism and Communion are the two Sacramental Ordinances of The Anglican church. Orders are another held by some in the Church but not here. The rest are instruments used to resolve needs in the Tradition of the Church rather than something, (Grace perhaps?), imparted from above. Baptism needs Confirmation. You believe then you are Baptised. We Baptise and then we live in hope that faith will Confirm! How do you feel about that PJD.? I'm not to happy myself. But in somethings I hope you realise you have a rebel writing to you here! Yours in His Wonderful Name, Colin. PS. PJD. I hope you will forgive me for repeating here how the Sacraments are described in The Articles of Religion of The Church of England. (I knew I had seen them somewhere!), .......... There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our LORD in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the LORD. Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, ............................ for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God. [Book of Common Prayer, Article XXV. Of the Sacraments. Cambridge CUP. 1662/1968, p621.]. |
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| Karin | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 03:57 Post #33 |
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Karin
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Over here in the 'Anglican Divide,' my sister, the father, is a divorced Episcopal priest married to a divorced Methodist minister, who is an expert on ADHD. Both are psycholgists with PhDs and both have a joint ministry together, plus their own ministries. My sister has just retired from her position as an assistant for one of the Cathedrals here in the States and is thoroughly enjoying being a Grandmama to her grandsons. Her ministries are really wonderful and helpful to so many, as are her husband's. Together, they are a fantastic pair and I know our parents would have been delighted to see how many people they do help. I want to thank Colin for his excellent commentary and wit. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading this! Coming from a traditional Episcopal background (even with a Rosary Society), then to the Anglican Catholic Church and now fully vested as a Roman Catholic (9 years), I see my own background as Colin has explained it. For me, everything was a step...in the right direction and I am thankful for all the education and information I received along the way. It's good material. Many thanks, Colin! |
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Karin Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas. "Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us." | |
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| Colin2000 | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 10:47 Post #34 |
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Hi All, Nice to meet you here Karin, I am pleased you appreciate the wit. Nice to be witless occasionally though! Your background I am sure is going to make for a stunned silence here. But not to worry Karin you can blame me for attracting you if your new of course? But apart from that I am most interested in a few more details of where you and your family have come from are going to and your alibi to the LORD on why it happened! Have you found a cure for Episcopalians yet other than prayer of course or shall we in England suggest shooting the beast! Crossed the Tibia Karin possibly just in time. Is your new local Priest off the Tablets yet? What do your family think of that one, gone to Rome???.... !!! ..... They didn't send you on a diversity course then! We may have to take them if we are found not to have joined the Great Abortion of Homophobia! (Don't try to work that last one out!). Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness, Colin. PS. I think there could be quite a number joining you from The Episcopal Church in the not to distant future! Just think we have an Archbishop of Canterbury travelling all that way to talk to TEC., just to get a no in writing! It sounds more like he has become a Commissioner of Oaths than an Archbishop!!! .... PPS. What's an ADHD.? (TEC. The Episcopal Church (of America)). |
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| PJD | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 12:26 Post #35 |
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Karen: They are wonderful experiences you have just related to us. Colin ‘Baptism needs Confirmation’ You ask this first (how do I feel) about Baptism needing Confirmation. One must be a little formal here inasmuch as Baptism is the Sacrament that opens us up to all the others. I suppose need is correct – we all need, in a similar sense so to speak, as our need is to get to heaven. So, yes we need Confirmation, but let us not forget the individual character of each sacrament. Quote “There is no overlapping in their activities; there is no confusion in their respective roles; they are not interchangeable in their purpose; they are as completely different in their spiritual results as they are different in their external symbols”. To go to your next point: ‘You believe then you are Baptised’. First infant Baptism, where the infant ‘believes’ or rather inherits the belief of their parents etc. Right of inheritance is a valid theological position in my opinion. Then adult Baptism – they obviously believe and therefore can receive Confirmation at the same time as Baptism. Still separate Sacraments – Confirmation often spoken of as Baptism of The Spirit – consequential on Pentecost. (Gerry will probably uplift you on this). You may find the following quote from Aquinas useful: ‘The ministers of the Church do not by their own power cleanse men who come to the sacraments, and they do not give grace to them. But Christ by His own power does this through them, as through certain instruments, and therefore the effect which follows, in those who receive the sacrament, is not in the likeness of the ministers, but a configuration to Christ.’ [STIIIQlxiv,Art 5ad 1]. So, Colin, for me that’s my attempt to answer your third paragraph. As for the rest – well I cannot see how one can avoid proceeding at some stage during this topic onto the Validity of Orders, and perhaps Sacramental ‘signs’ (or significations). Also - biblical exegesis in respect of what you say ‘are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel’ – but others here are more learned on that (smile). PJD |
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| Clare | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 12:47 Post #36 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. |
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S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 13:58 Post #37 |
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Colin, Thank you for your reply. If we were in the same room with a cup of tea I would enjoy going a bit deeper there but time, the need to laboriously type each word, and some deeper issues now cause me to move on. However, I agree we influence each other (it is more than cross posting). PJD, I remind you of your early statement that a gift is required. Nevertheless I will put forth a Biblical explanation of the need for confirmation. No particular expertise needed. I think most here could have done so. Colin,
How about Sacraments of the Acts ? Is Acts of God ? Is laying on of hands a ceremony ? Acts 8:5-18
So, Colin, we (catholics) read this as showing that Philip the evangelist (not the apostle) was able to sucessfully preach, convert, baptise and perform miracles but he did not lay on hands for the imparting of the Holy Spirit. The apostles were sent for to perform this outward sign of inward grace which they duly did and the Holy Spirit fell on the Baptised converts. There are two ceremonies. Both in the Bible. Both impart grace. Both needed (or why bother sending for the apostles). So why exclude confirmation from any list of sacraments. Note that these were adult believers. One cannot invoke infant baptism as an explanation here. Furthermore, as you will have noted, we have touched upon Orders. Confirmation was from the apostles - the twelve. That is why in our confession, and also yours, Confirmation is the prerogative of Bishops. Colin, for me, the catholic church (RC) is the only one where all the pieces fit. The only one where the whole hangs together and is suported by scripture. Every other denomination has cut something away from the whole and lost that and more besides. Because when you cut something away you have weakened the whole structure. But we have kept the whole structure. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| JARay | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 14:14 Post #38 |
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Part of me does not want to detract from the excellent response put forward by Gerry. At this moment I will not add anything to what he has said , other than to say that every Sacrament, with, perhaps, the exception of Extreme Unction has a Scriptural origin. I will enter that fray later. JARay |
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| Clare | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 14:41 Post #39 |
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
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Extreme Unction does too. James 5:14
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S.A.G. Motes 'n' Beams blog Join in the Fun Trivia Quiz! | |
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| Colin2000 | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 16:47 Post #40 |
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Hi Clare, ADHD: Attention Deficit Hypoactive Disorder! Thank you Clare, I know the feeling well. Coupled with word blindness and a Dictionary that can not spell! The greatest miracle this weekend is keeping up with you all! Never mind the child this seventy year old child. To true it is more common in boys in the UK. in fact I think it is more common in old boys as well! Strange as it may seem with my deafness which was never picked up was my main problem. If it was not on the Black-board forget it. You would be amazed at how you could hide it and I could even look intelligent at the back of class while dreaming of flying with Biggles and shooting enemy fighters and bombers down! Then at night, two in the morning watch the Ack-Ack actually shooting them down! Excessively and frequently interrupting others. Well if your not totally in the conversation and deaf it did happen. Result was to become an introvert and shut up! But never mind. I might retire for the third time this year, then again. Yours in His Wonderful Name Clare, Colin. PS. Got two hearing aids now so I don't miss much any more and do you know I can even switch you and the world off now too! PPS. Hey you all I will read and digest and then post if the LORD tells me too! |
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| Rose of York | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 16:57 Post #41 |
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Administrator
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Colin I'm not sure whether you are half a Catholic or half a Protestant.
:D One thing I am sure of, you are sincere in your beliefs. |
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Keep the Faith! | |
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| Colin2000 | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 17:16 Post #42 |
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Hi Rose, Do you know some of us can actually go about listening to the Angels singing! Lovely it is, and unless you say it the wrong way you can't get certified. They've sold off the local Mental Hospital for a housing estate!!! .... A good idea when singing along with the Angels is to have your arm cocked with a mobile phone in it as an alibi! But friends, have you heard a heavenly choir not singing but laughing??? .... So let His face shine upon us and give us Peace, Joy and Laughter! Colin. |
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| PJD | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 17:32 Post #43 |
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Gerry: I didn't quite understand what you were saying. When I referred to 'gift' at the time I was thinking of 'conversion' as a gift. Never mind; no problem really. PJD |
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| Gerard | Sunday, 9. September 2007, 17:42 Post #44 |
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PJD Yes thats right. The gift is to understand it as we do. Protestant scholars of the Bible have been reading it in other ways for 400 years now. Gerry |
| "The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998). | |
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| Karin | Tuesday, 11. September 2007, 17:22 Post #45 |
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Karin
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Thanks for the ADHD clarification, Clare. Guess I am so used to that, I think most people know what it is! And to respond to your enquiry Colin, my family probably didn't think twice about my moving on up to the Roman Catholic denomination. It had been a progression throughout my lifetime anyway. My mother (my adoptive parent) had come from a family of Roman Catholics in Chicago. Her father had been tapped to be the priest in the family and he said a resounding NO to that. He left Chicago, moved to Davenport, Iowa and joined the Episcopal Church. He met my grandmother and the rest is history. However, my mother, during her lifetime, was adamant about my not becoming Catholic. So, being a dutiful daughter, I waited until the time was right, as she had passed away in November, I made my decision to attend RCIA classes the following Autumn. But God had another twist to add to my decision. I met Mick, a cradle Catholic from Oldham, on line in March and we were married civilly in Oldham in May, with our marriage blessed (and me received into the church) in April the following year. To say that God works in mysterious ways is very true. And it goes to show He has a great sense of timing...and also a pretty good sense of humour. |
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Karin Hvaljen Isus i Marija. Kraljica Mira, moli za nas. "Praised be Jesus and Mary. Queen of Peace, Pray for Us." | |
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9:20 AM Jul 11