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When Is A Protestant Not A Protestant?
Topic Started: Friday, 7. September 2007, 16:44 (757 Views)
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:miss:
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OsullivanB

I have now read the book recommended by Bob. It is interesting and informative. I did not find it persuasive on the central point indicated by the title: "Martin Luther - Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor" . This is unsurprising as the writer, who disclaims academic qualifications for writing it, says of it: "...I am not attempting to provide a fool-proof thesis; I am merely trying to suggest a possibility, a line of thought which hitherto has been ignored." Worth a glance through. Thanks Bob.
Edited by OsullivanB, Tuesday, 5. May 2009, 21:15.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Bob Crowley

The reason I came across the book in the first place was in my early days of Catholicism, and I was trying to find out a bit more about Luther's dark side, so to speak. What prompted it was my old Protestant pastor's comment that he thought Luther might be the "false prophet" of revelation (withi the rider, "If there is one", due to Revelation's complexity), with the remark, "Some of the things Luther said and did were not very Christian."

He also said, "That's why I very rarely preach on Luther". He didn't either.

I found the onlnie version first, and then ordered a hard copy for myself. Needless to say there's a lot in there most Protestants (and these days most Catholics) would not be aware of - Luther's attitude to the peasants, women, Jews, other reformers, anyone who disagreed with him, drunkenness, adultery, lying, and his political consorting with the Princes, his foul language, and the rest. And of course the millions of dead in the Protestant wars - Shirer quoted Germany's population declined from 16 million to 6 million a century later. I've heard other quotes, but whatever the actual figure, the violence and killing was extreme.

It's difficult to find anything now which gives these aspects. All one ever hears about in Protestant circles is the business of "faith alone", as though this can somehow be disassociated from his actual actions, or the bloodthirstiness which stemmed from it.
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
Ned
Monday, 4. May 2009, 20:43
Hi Clare,

I disagree very strongly with most of what you say,
Anathema sit! :grin:

Quote:
 
About this topic of non-Catholic Christians, and whether they're really Christian.


No, that's not what I've been saying. I've been saying that other denominations are not Christian. I think I said earlier that I'm not so strict regarding individuals.

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From what I've seen some Protestants are Christians and some aren't. It depends on the individual.


Aye.

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And it's the same with Catholics. Some of them are Christians and some aren't.


Yup.
S.A.G.

Motes 'n' Beams blog

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OsullivanB

Quote:
 
Anathema sit!

Did you perhaps mean "anathema sis"? (Since you appeared to be talking to Ned rather than about him.)
Edited by OsullivanB, Thursday, 7. May 2009, 10:24.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Clare
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Putting the "Fun Dame" into Fundamentalist
OsullivanB
Thursday, 7. May 2009, 10:23
Quote:
 
Anathema sit!

Did you perhaps mean "anathema sis"? (Since you appeared to be talking to Ned rather than about him.)
If you say so, sir!
S.A.G.

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Rose of York
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Anathema sit!

What does it mean, please? Some of us don't understand Latin.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
Thursday, 7. May 2009, 20:48
Anathema sit!

What does it mean, please? Some of us don't understand Latin.
let him be anathema.

:hereticrepellent:

In essence this is the most extreme punishment pronounced by the church in that the person who is found guilty is not just excommunicated and denied the sacraments but they are put outside of the body of the church so that they can receive no comfort or succour from any the faithful. In a very real sense they are dead to the church and the old service by which the sentence was pronounced was a form of requiem mass in which the Bell tolled the book of Gospels was closed and the candles extinguished, 'Bell Book and Candles'
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Derekap
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Has anyone suffered this punishment in recent centuries? It sounds as if The Church was damning the victim - contrary to Sanctification.
Derekap
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Rose of York
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I know about anathema, but this is beyond this non linguist:

Anathema sit!

Edit:

Got it!

Protestants are anathema. Clare takes them for walkies, and just to get them in the right frame of mind for a lecture about the Papacy, she tell those who are anathema to "sit!"
Edited by Rose of York, Thursday, 7. May 2009, 21:16.
Keep the Faith!

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Derekap
Thursday, 7. May 2009, 21:12
Has anyone suffered this punishment in recent centuries? It sounds as if The Church was damning the victim - contrary to Sanctification.
In a sense the church is putting the sinner in quarantine, the final judgment as to their fate rests with the Lord.
It was a way of ensuring that people were not fooled into giving the person support out of charity while themselves being corrupted by the evil that the person was proclaiming or acting out through their chosen lifestyle or heresy.
The Person could recant and be brought back into the fold by penance but usually only by confessing to a higher ecclesiastical authority than the local priest or even Bishop. Some sins are still reserved to bishops and the Holy See, abortion being one that comes to mind.
this link is helpful:http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=11084

Parents sometimes send a child to their room, partly as a punishment, partly to give them space to calm down but also in part to take the child’s influence away from their siblings and other children. Anathema Sit is a fairly draconian way of calling time out and demanding the person changes their ways or they will not be allowed to mix with the other members of the family and if anyone argues with that judgment then they too will be rebuked.
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Bob Crowley

Penfold
Thursday, 7. May 2009, 22:42
Derekap
Thursday, 7. May 2009, 21:12
Has anyone suffered this punishment in recent centuries? It sounds as if The Church was damning the victim - contrary to Sanctification.
In a sense the church is putting the sinner in quarantine, the final judgment as to their fate rests with the Lord.
It was a way of ensuring that people were not fooled into giving the person support out of charity while themselves being corrupted by the evil that the person was proclaiming or acting out through their chosen lifestyle or heresy.
The Person could recant and be brought back into the fold by penance but usually only by confessing to a higher ecclesiastical authority than the local priest or even Bishop. Some sins are still reserved to bishops and the Holy See, abortion being one that comes to mind.
this link is helpful:http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=11084

Parents sometimes send a child to their room, partly as a punishment, partly to give them space to calm down but also in part to take the child’s influence away from their siblings and other children. Anathema Sit is a fairly draconian way of calling time out and demanding the person changes their ways or they will not be allowed to mix with the other members of the family and if anyone argues with that judgment then they too will be rebuked.
Your comment "Some sins are still resereved to Bishops and the Holy See.."

I was told by a priest, who has majored in ethics, that he, as a priest, had the authority to lift the automatic excommunication for abortion. And to me this would make sense. I can hardly see Bishops and the Holy See having the time to hear the confession of all the women who have had abortions.
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Bob Crowley
Saturday, 9. May 2009, 03:21


I was told by a priest, who has majored in ethics, that he, as a priest, had the authority to lift the automatic excommunication for abortion. And to me this would make sense. I can hardly see Bishops and the Holy See having the time to hear the confession of all the women who have had abortions.
Being reseved to the local ordinary or to Holy See is in practice the same as saying that a person was prosecuted by the Crown. In reality there are qualified experts who act with the authority delegated to them by the higher Authority. The point is that inorder to absolve a person of certain sins a priest requires a special facultulty.
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Derekap
Thursday, 7. May 2009, 21:12
Has anyone suffered this punishment in recent centuries? It sounds as if The Church was damning the victim - contrary to Sanctification.
Recent Excommunications

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Fr. Chris Carpenter Excommunicated in Diocese of Phoenix, Arizona
By Deacon Keith Fournier
5/7/2009
Fr. Chris Carpenter is now called by some the “Chancellor of the Diocese of St Joseph the Worker in Southern California”. Only he is no longer allowed to hold himself out as a Roman Catholic Priest. He separated himself from the Catholic Church and incurred the penalty of excommunication. That has now been formally recognized by an official decree. However, Chris Carpenter still calls himself a priest. Only now he claims to be a priest for the so called “Reformed catholic church.”


Table of Excommunications
From the 1983 Code of Canon Law
Supplied by the Faculty of Canon Law of St Paul University,
CANON BRIEF DESIGNATION OF OFFENCE & NATURE OF PENALTY


1364, §1 Apostasy, heresy, schism … latae sententiae

1367 Violation of sacred species … latae sententiae (reserved to Holy See)

1370, §1 Physical attack on pope … latae sententiae (reserved to Holy See)

1378, §1 Absolution of an accomplice … latae sententiae (reserved to Holy See)

1378, §3 Pretended celebration of Eucharist or conferral of sacramental absolution by one not a priest … ferendae sententiae (facultative) dependent on gravity of offence

1382 Unauthorized episcopal consecration … latae sententiae (reserved to Holy See )

1388, §1 Direct violation of confessional seal by confessor … latae sententiae

1388, §2 Violation of confessional seal by interpreter and others … ferendae sententiae (facultative)

1398 Procuring of abortion … latae sententiae

latae sententiae means that excommunication is automatic. This is most easily understood in the case of apostasy. It is obvious that if one has become a Jehovah's Witness, for instance, one is automatically no longer a Roman Catholic. The ones that are automatic, but reserved to the Holy See, require the pope's authority to invoke.

ferendae sententiae means that excommunication is not automatic, but is possible.

Pope Benedict has also declared priests who commit child abuse to be Latae Sententie (reserved to the Holy See) and the list of sins reserved to the Holy See is constantly under review.
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