Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit!
You're currently viewing Catholic CyberForum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our online cyberparish, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.
Join our community!
Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of abuse, personal attacks, blasphemy, racism, threats, harrassment, and crude or sexually-explicit language.
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
Is a little knowledge a dangerous thing?
Topic Started: Thursday, 16. April 2009, 20:45 (528 Views)
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Copied from another thread.

Penfold
 
This topic has also led me of in a train of thought that may well need a thread of its own.

"of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat" Gen2:17

In days gone by the church was very retisent abut allowing the laity and even ordinary priests study scripture.
THings began to change in 1893 when Pope Leo XIII issued the Encyclical My Webpage
Quote:
 
PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS

and more explisitly in 1943 when Pius XII issued
Quote:
 
Divino Afflante Spiritu
My Webpage
and various documents of the Vatican II in particular
Quote:
 
DEI VERBUM

SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965 and most recently in
Quote:
 
Dei Verbum and Lectio Divina
by Benedict XVIn Sept. 16, 2005.

My point is that in the old days our churches were full and people learnt their prayers and the catechism and such stories from the Bible and the New Testament that the Church deemed appropriate, and issued suitably packaged with advice and guidance. Now our churches are no longer full, people are encouraged to explore their faith and study scripture, have we perhaps suffered because we have feasted upon the fruits of Knowledge? Would we be better of in ignorant bliss?
Personally I consider that old phrase " A little Knowledge is a dangerous thing" and that after years of under nourishment people feasted and perhaps more care should be taken in our study.
Before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge they were free of responsibility after eating they had to accept the consequences of choice and learn how to make responsible choices. Faith as taught in the catechism was simple and a simple set of prayers helped us on our way, now we have to explore Our Faith things are not so easy.
My apologies but these thoughts have floated through my head after considering the Garden of Eden and I wonder if anyone else thinks the same way or am I of the plot. Maybe the Garden of Eden is a place where I would have been free of having to engage in such thought processes.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Powerofone

You can go back futher thing to an event called the reformation, or further still to the advent of moveable type. PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS indeed.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Penfold
 

"of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat" Gen2:17

....................................................................................................


My point is that in the old days our churches were full and people learnt their prayers and the catechism and such stories from the Bible and the New Testament that the Church deemed appropriate, and issued suitably packaged with advice and guidance. Now our churches are no longer full, people are encouraged to explore their faith and study scripture, have we perhaps suffered because we have feasted upon the fruits of Knowledge? Would we be better of in ignorant bliss?
Personally I consider that old phrase " A little Knowledge is a dangerous thing" and that after years of under nourishment people feasted and perhaps more care should be taken in our study.

....................................................................................................

Faith as taught in the catechism was simple and a simple set of prayers helped us on our way, now we have to explore Our Faith things are not so easy.
My apologies but these thoughts have floated through my head after considering the Garden of Eden and I wonder if anyone else thinks the same way or am I of the plot. Maybe the Garden of Eden is a place where I would have been free of having to engage in such thought processes.


Plenty of food for thought there, Penfold!

Recently I have been helping an isolated Catholic, a person who confided in a priest that he had doubts about some aspects of Church teaching. He was adviced to attend a full RCIA course at a place and time that were out of the question, he asked the priest if there were any simple books, and was advised to obtain and study the Cathechism of the Catholic Church. My friend turned to me. The Catechism is too learned a tome for this particular person, who would not understand it and doesn't need it. Together we decided the best literature for him would be Catholic Truth Society booklets.

Members who are not in the UK can click here to see what sort of literature I mean.

http://www.cts-online.org.uk/acatalog/info_D660.html

My friend is now learning from those simple little bookets, how to go to confession, how to examine his conscience, some simple set prayers and a few other things. But - this guy loves God, he knows about the origins of the Catholic Church ("Thou are Peter"), he wants to be right with God and the Church. For years he was confused because his mind had been filled with more than he could handle.

Oh dear, I don't have a degree in Pastoral Theology, I never attend seminars where people "discover their faith" by indepth study. All I know is the man is chuffed pink with his little booklets, which he is going to study before going to confession. He used to be scared of going because his head had been filled with more theology than he could cope with.

The barely educated people who filled the pews of our church during my childhood had three great gifts - Faith, Hope and Charity. Many of the old ones had left school at 12 or 14. Their example of prayerfulness abides with me to this day.

It boils down to each one of needing to settle at the level of knowledge that is right for us, individually.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

I rate the CTS even more highly than that. I will just give three examples.

The booklet on the Book of Revelation is the only one I've come across that I have found really helpful in reading that very difficult and controversial book.

The one on Heresy is clear and excellent.

The one on the Crusades is a wonderful example of how to provide a great wealth of information economically. It is by the Dixie Professor of Ecclesiastical History, University of Cambridge, one of the world's leading scholars in the subject.

The whole concept is in my view brilliant. Many of us who would baulk at reading a 672 page book on the sacraments, have no such problem in tackling a series of 96 page booklets.
Edited by OsullivanB, Saturday, 18. April 2009, 02:30.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Thank-you Rose, for transferring my thoughts this thread.
For clarity, I am asking a question rather than making a statement. The point that I raise is that I think that somewhere along the way the church in the west seams to have become all about Exploring our faith rather than living our faith. I do think that the CTS provide excellent booklets and I do not suggest that people should remain ignorant. What I ask and what I am curious to know is how we have gone from a church of faith to a church of certainly based on knowledge and study.
My concerns include:
1) Where the knowledge is coming from?
2) Who is regulating the study?
3) Are we any wiser or just full of information?
4) Is my belief in God a testament of Faith or a statement of a known fact, (Knowledge)?

All these and other questions stem form the original position of asking what would have happened if Adam and Eve had not eaten of the tree of knowledge.

Quote:
 
"What would we have done with our time? We would not have needed to go to work, see a doctor, fill a car up with petrol, travel to get basic necesseties such as food. There would have been no churches, no Mass to go to, because Jesus would not have felt the need to come here and die on the cross. I doubt whether we could have gone out for a meal, because that would have involved somebody in working for their living. "
[/b] posed by Rose.

My thoughts on Eden are just that and I welcome discussion for though we do not live in Eden it is symbolic of that place where once we were innocent and untainted by the cares of this world. Where we live on this earth is not the point it is where we wish to live and where we are heading spiritually that matters. My concern is that in this age of "Knowledge”, (N B I do not say age of reason for that is a different proposition)we have lost "Faith" and that is why I posed the question which is now open for debate in this thread, "Is a little knowledge a dangerous thing?"
Goto Top
 
Joe Valente
Member Avatar

To me this is not an easy question with a yes or no answer. I think that it depends on how we use the knowledge that we have. I think that we must understand the limit of the knowledge that we have. Sometimes by displaying the little knowledge that we have we can leave ourselves open to questions that we cannot answer and then we cause confusion.
What good would all the knowledge available to us be if we have not got the faith.
A wooly sort of answer unfortunately but I am not sure that we need a lot of knowledge, fortunately for us Catholics, we have the Church to inform, teach and enlighten us and we have our faith to sustain us. What more do I need
What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Our information needs to be correct. The internet has many sites purporting to be Catholic, which are not. One which I will not name, pretends to be about Our Lady, but by following the links it is obviously masquerading as Catholic. Only today I have been alerted to the fact that I had referred, on this site, to a Bible Commentary that has the same name as a highly respected Catholic Commentary, but is not the real thing. I removed the references and the link.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Joe Valente
Friday, 17. April 2009, 11:58
To me this is not an easy question with a yes or no answer. I think that it depends on how we use the knowledge that we have. I think that we must understand the limit of the knowledge that we have. Sometimes by displaying the little knowledge that we have we can leave ourselves open to questions that we cannot answer and then we cause confusion.
What good would all the knowledge available to us be if we have not got the faith.
A wooly sort of answer unfortunately but I am not sure that we need a lot of knowledge, fortunately for us Catholics, we have the Church to inform, teach and enlighten us and we have our faith to sustain us. What more do I need
Do all of us have the Church to inform, teach and enlighten us?

There are many places where there are no Catholic schools, children go through set courses for First Confession and Holy Communion and later, Confirmation. That is about it, unless their parish provides regular education for them, and if the parents are able and willing to get them there. Converts need ongoing suppoert.

My church has no Catholic Truth Society booklets, Catholic newspapers or magazines. Without adequate sources, those who are interested in their own religious education are to some extent at the mercy of books and the internet. Some sites and literature are not what they seem. This highlights the need for better facilities for isolated Catholics.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Joe Valente
Friday, 17. April 2009, 11:58
I am not sure that we need a lot of knowledge.
Some do. Some don't.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Derekap
Member Avatar

A danger in my experience is when people describe someone as very intelligent when they really mean he is very knowledgeable. Intelligence is how they use their knowledge.

Quotations from the Bible can be used to promote conflicting views.




Derekap
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Ned

Derekap
Friday, 17. April 2009, 16:33
Quotations from the Bible can be used to promote conflicting views.
You're absolutely right, Derek. Saints Peter and Paul both tell us to keep our wits about us.

But if there is a proper discussion between us and we are able to raise themes and texts from various books of the Bible then we ought, by the grace of God, to come amicably to the right conclusions.
Edited by Ned, Friday, 17. April 2009, 22:38.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
PJD


“What I ask and what I am curious to know is how we have gone from a church of faith to a church of certainly based on knowledge and study.” [per Penfold]

This is not, in a certain sense, a new phenomenon. If anything it is a ‘correction’ towards past good practice.

The resurrection of general study, particularly scholastic theology, was considered by the Vatican as urgent in the late 19th century , and the matter was resurrected in modern times by Pope John Paul II. See Faith & Reason topic which I introduced, but no one seemed interested [described by a learned priests I know as one of the most profound forward looking encyclicals produced by JPII and that is why I made reference to it on here].

PJD
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
OsullivanB

Penfold
 
What I ask and what I am curious to know is how we have gone from a church of faith to a church of certainly based on knowledge and study.
I can't really post an answer to this question because my experience does not verify the essential judgment that we are now a church of certainty based on knowledge and study. I think there are interesting issues of catechesis but I don't recognise the Church you succinctly describe. If you would care to expand on your proposition, I would be very grateful. If we have ever been a Church of certainty based on knowledge and study, I should have thought the writings of Aquinas were more of a high point for this than anything I know to be happening in the 21st century.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

OsullivanB
Saturday, 18. April 2009, 13:56
Penfold
 
What I ask and what I am curious to know is how we have gone from a church of faith to a church of certainly based on knowledge and study.
I can't really post an answer to this question because my experience does not verify the essential judgment that we are now a church of certainty based on knowledge and study. I think there are interesting issues of catechesis but I don't recognise the Church you succinctly describe. If you would care to expand on your proposition, I would be very grateful. If we have ever been a Church of certainty based on knowledge and study, I should have thought the writings of Aquinas were more of a high point for this than anything I know to be happening in the 21st century.
Thomas Aquinas was indeed a great scholar and his work is the basis for much Modern Philosophy and theological thought and there have always been great scholars in the church but they rarely came in contact with the average faithful parishioner in the pews.
OsullivanB has a point though in that maybe I have posed the question to the wrong people for reading through various threads there is much evidence of Faith, Hope and Charity in this group and there is scholarship within the discussions.
As I said in my original post, maybe I have lost the plot but in former times people seemed content to live by faith but now they want certainties.
I would also point out that Thomas Aquinas could not be accused of having a little knowledge and I suspect if people did imitate him then all would be well. The problem, as I see it, is that people read a synthesis of other scholars works and extracts from great writings but actually have not advanced in wisdom or faith.
Being armed with a little knowledge they then doubt their faith and question the church or just drift away disillusioned. In my ministry I come across a great many lost Catholics who think they know the teaching of the church but actually only know a small fraction. To site an example, many people criticise Humanae Vitae but how many have actually read it. O yes people will quote passages from it but fail to understand its full defence of the dignity of human life. Not perhaps the best example but I am tired of people quoting passages and referring to works which they clearly have not read which brings me back to the point, “A little Knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Goto Top
 
Rose of York
Member Avatar
Administrator
Penfold
Saturday, 18. April 2009, 16:17
Thomas Aquinas was indeed a great scholar and his work is the basis for much Modern Philosophy and theological thought and there have always been great scholars in the church but they rarely came in contact with the average faithful parishioner in the pews.
That's me, an average parishioner in the pews.

Penfold
Saturday, 18. April 2009, 16:17
To site an example, many people criticise Humanae Vitae but how many have actually read it. O yes people will quote passages from it but fail to understand its full defence of the dignity of human life.
I admit, that when Humanae Vitae came out I knew the Pope had made it clear the use of contracteptive pill was not permissible. We all knew, because it was in the newspapers!

In the early eighties, when I attended instructions with my husband (in company with four other prospective converts), prior to his reception into the Church, I made some comment about Humanae Vitae. The parish priest asked if I had read it, I said something lke "No Father, but......" He made sure that I went home armed with a copy of Humanae Vitae. I read it and was amazed by the sheer common sense expounded, and also by the sheer beauty of parts of the encyclical. Up to that point I had been under the illusion I knew all about it.

It should be a matter of grave concern to our bishops that many Catholics, particularly those who do not use the internet, have or no access to orthodox Catholic teaching. A homily, once a week, based on the readings of the day, will not solve all burning issues.

The daily papers report on what our Pope says, they put their own slant on things, and omit the bits they don't like.
Keep the Faith!

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archived Discussions · Next Topic »
Locked Topic