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| Easter Triduum And Holy Week Liturgy; | |
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| Topic Started: Tuesday, 3. April 2007, 13:08 (165 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Tuesday, 3. April 2007, 13:08 Post #1 |
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I would like Deacon Robert to answer a question: Who should read the Gospel narrative of The Passion on Palm/Passion Sunday? Is it correct for a layman to read the narrative and the priest to speak the words of Christ? |
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| Joseph | Tuesday, 3. April 2007, 13:28 Post #2 |
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Interesting Question. Our Deacon reads it at our church, as I think is the case on EWTN too. But if you ain't got a Deacon.... Well maybe it's time you did have one - get recruiting Rose :) |
| Joseph | |
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| Derekap | Tuesday, 3. April 2007, 14:42 Post #3 |
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In my former parish a lay reader read the narrative, the celebrant spoke the parts attributed to Jesus Christ, another lay reader spoke the parts of other speakers (St Peter, Pilate etc) and the congregation performed the part of the crowd. Before that the congregation spoke the parts of other speakers and the crowd. On one occasion the curate (you now know how long ago it was) decided to have a man for the male other speakers and a woman for the female other speakers - she didn't have much to say. Unfortunately the congregation, not having been forewarned, decided to answer for both other speakers. I could feel the curate seething with annoyance behind me. On the Sunday morning he referred to the ceremonies and said something in passing about despite what happened during the reading of the Passion. I couldn't help shaking with quiet laughter and he squeezed my arm when he passed down the aisle at the end (I was the male other speaker). I have been the narrator a number of times, the first time without warning. I felt rather tense because I realised how important such a key role it is. In my present parish the Deacon is the narrator, the priest Jesus Christ, a lay reader the other speaker and the congregation the crowd. I can't think of any alternative. It is certainly better than one person just reading it all the way through. I can't remember what happened in Tridentine Days, probably it was read in Latin and then English at one Holy Mass and the permitted abbreviated version at the others. |
| Derekap | |
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| Deacon Robert | Tuesday, 3. April 2007, 14:56 Post #4 |
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It is done pretty much the way Derekap describes in my Diocese, even when the Bishop presides, so I guess it is proper or has become a local tradition and has the Bishop's approval. |
| Dcn Robert | |
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| Eve | Tuesday, 3. April 2007, 15:02 Post #5 |
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Cardinal Mayer gave some instructions in 1988.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWEASTF.HTM |
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| denis | Tuesday, 3. April 2007, 21:04 Post #6 |
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To me, although the Liturgy for Good-Friday is good and holy, I much prefer it to be just The Stations Of The Cross at 3 pm the time when Christ died, and we dwell upon his Passion. Most Churches do have the stations but usually in the morning. |
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| Derekap | Tuesday, 3. April 2007, 21:10 Post #7 |
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Until somewhere about the 1950s the Good Friday Liturgy was always in the morning and usually there were Stations of the Cross at 3pm. |
| Derekap | |
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| Joseph | Thursday, 5. April 2007, 22:19 Post #8 |
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When done well, with appropriate readers, these arrangements can be very successful. But when our parish first started to involve lay readers I recall some really uneasy experiences in which women read men's parts, even though there were male readers available - it destroyed the whole character of the celebration. |
| Joseph | |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 5. April 2007, 22:26 Post #9 |
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I am a reader. If I were asked to read a male "part" in church I would decline. Not only is it inappropriate, it is downright silly. |
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| CARLO | Thursday, 5. April 2007, 22:33 Post #10 |
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![]() Here's hoping that things are done properly in your Parish tomorrow. In recent years Good Friday has often seen the attempted introduction of liturgical 'innovations' such as crude and oversized wooden crosses for veneration instead of the crucifix! De profundis Out of the depths CARLO |
| Judica me Deus | |
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| Rose of York | Friday, 6. April 2007, 00:41 Post #11 |
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CARLO Please read paragraphs 68 to 70 in Cardinal Meyer's instructions. http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWEASTF.HTM The Cardinal used the word "cross", not "crucifix". My two missals, Roman (published 1957) and New Rite, use the word "Cross". The instructions in my Roman (ie Tridentine) missal say the Cross should be as large as possible, and the Celebrant carries the Cross (with assistance if necessary) to the Epistle side of the sanctuary. So, it looks as though large wooden crosses used for veneration are correct, and not "instead of the crucifix." |
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| Derekap | Friday, 6. April 2007, 11:19 Post #12 |
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"68. For the veneration of the Cross, let a cross be used that is of appropriate size and beauty," How can a Cross or Crucifix be beautiful unless it is extremely decorative which to me is not realistic? I am sure when I was learning about such things, I was told that when we venerated the Cross we kissed the feet of the figure of Jesus Christ. Whenever I have attended a Good Friday Liturgy or a Veneration of the Cross after Stations of the Cross a Cross with the figure of Jesus Christ has always been used. Whether this offends a liturgical rule I don't know But I can hardly think such an offence is sinful. I hope we are not at cross purposes! |
| Derekap | |
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| CARLO | Friday, 6. April 2007, 12:11 Post #13 |
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Rose / Derek "A veiled crucifix is gradually exposed to view" (1962 Roman Catholic Daily Missal - Angelus Press p.536) "The deacon brings from the sacristy a veiled crucifix" (1959 The Small Missal, Burns and Oates p.138) "The Priest then advances to the front corner and uncovers the right arm, elevating the Crucifix a little" (1936 The Daily Missal, Laverty and Sons Ltd p.695). I think part of the difficulty is that 'crucifix' can be taken to mean both an ordinary plain cross and a cross bearing the figure of Our Saviour. Those of us that were around pre-V2 should know quite well that the latter was the practice until V2. Now the Liturgy Profs have seized on loose wording in current instructions (not for the first time!) and used the same to justify nailed together planks of cheap wood and fence panels more appropriate to the back garden! And therefore there has been neither 'Crucifix' nor 'unveiling' in some Parishes for many years. Libera nos Deliver us ![]() O My People! CARLO |
| Judica me Deus | |
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| Derekap | Friday, 6. April 2007, 12:54 Post #14 |
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Carlo wrote: "to justify nailed together planks of cheap wood and fence panels more appropriate to the back garden!" I doubt if the true Cross was made of expensive wood. I myself have never seen crosses made of fence panels. The cross carried by the Pope or his immediate assistant looks like tree trunks cut to size. |
| Derekap | |
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| Joseph | Friday, 6. April 2007, 20:12 Post #15 |
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The main Crucifix used by the Clergy today at our local church was very much like the one in Carlo's photograph:- But ONLY the Clergy used that one, and it was then propped-up against the front of the Table Altar whilst the congregation were invited to kiss (standing not kneeling) one of two much-smaller crucifixes held by the priest and the deacon. The Invitation and the people's response at the unveling were all spoken, not sung. For the Good Friday Liturgy, we had a female read both of the Readings and then she stayed on for The Passion to take the part of "Speaker other than Christ". The Priest Celebrant took the part of "Narrator". And the Deacon took the part of "Christ" (a rather strange role reversal?). The female Reader reads well, but when it comes to reciting male parts, such as the very important words of Simon Peter, and Pilate, I'm afraid the female voice could simply not do them justice - a shame really (but easily avoidable). One other thing that really disturbed me too, was that at the time of Jesus's death on the Cross no-one in the church knelt down, in silent contemplation. I don't think I have ever witnessed that before, since it was always seen and 'experienced' as the most significant part of the Passion. Oh well! At least we still have a priest, and a deacon, and a Good Friday Liturgy - which (sadly) is more than an increasing number of Catholic parishes in the UK can continue to claim, so God Bless them and may they serve us for many years to come. |
| Joseph | |
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