Order of Precedence

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Order of Precedence; split from Westminster thread
Topic Started: Sunday, 5. April 2009, 13:29 (94 Views)
KatyA	Sunday, 5. April 2009, 13:29 Post #1
Administrator Posts: 5,407 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	OsullivanB Sunday, 5. April 2009, 12:38 I was brought up to understand that a Cardinal was a Prince of the Church with rank accordingly. An Archbishop is addressed in the same way as a Duke - Your Grace. My understanding also, however, although an Archbishop is addressed in the same way as a Duke, I don't think the rank equates - otherwise he would take precedence over the prince/cardinal. (Sorry Fortunatus - off topic. I do agree that Archbishop Nichols appears to be quite media savvy and there are reasons to hope his voice will be heard ) Edited by KatyA, Sunday, 5. April 2009, 13:31.



OsullivanB	Sunday, 5. April 2009, 14:15 Post #2
Posts: 2,196 Group: Moderator Member #205 Joined: August 14, 2008	Princes outrank dukes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_precedence_in_England_and_Wales#Members_of_the_Royal_Family Edited by OsullivanB, Sunday, 5. April 2009, 14:19.



KatyA	Sunday, 5. April 2009, 14:22 Post #3
Administrator Posts: 5,407 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	Now that is news to me. I always understood a Duke outranked a prince - which is why Prince Phillip was given the title Duke of Edinburgh One lives and learns.



Rose of York	Sunday, 5. April 2009, 15:01 Post #4
Administrator Posts: 14,538 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Assuming a Cardinal has the same status as a Duke (next down from a Prince) what next? If the Cardinal becomes a Baron, does that give princedom in the Church and the lowest status the peerage? How dreadful, a mere life peer with the lowly rank of baron, taking part in the election of the head of the Vatican State! That will not do! At a State event, what will he wear, a coronet, a mitre or a hybridised form of headgear? I kike the idea of a mitre with little gold spherical objects, or a pointed coronet. Are we likely to have Baron the Cardinal or Cardinal Baron? At the investiture the new Lord must kiss Her Majesty's hand. Will she and Prince Philip kiss the new Lord's ring? The possibilities are endless. Americans must find us rather quaint, but our tradititional oddities are fun!
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Rose of York	Sunday, 5. April 2009, 15:04 Post #5
Administrator Posts: 14,538 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	KatyA Sunday, 5. April 2009, 14:22 Now that is news to me. I always understood a Duke outranked a prince - which is why Prince Phillip was given the title Duke of Edinburgh One lives and learns. Princes are invariably Royal, therefore in the line of succession. Some Dukes are not Royal. Imagine, Cardinal Murphy O'Connor, Duke of Whateveryoumaycall it, outranking the princes, and being in line for the crown? That would be a lark, he would be forbidden, by law, to marry a Catholic.
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KatyA	Sunday, 5. April 2009, 15:41 Post #6
Administrator Posts: 5,407 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	Order of succession and order of precedence are different. OsB is correct, a prince of the royal blood usually outranks a Duke but I think that a non-British prince would not. A fascinating article Orders of precedence in England and Wales expalins all. Keep it handy in case you invite any of them round for lunch KatyA



Rose of York	Sunday, 5. April 2009, 16:32 Post #7
Administrator Posts: 14,538 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	They would be best moved, Katy.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


CARLO	Monday, 6. April 2009, 11:16 Post #8
Posts: 1,687 Group: Members Member #27 Joined: September 28, 2006	These are matters of great importance that should be taken seriously instead of sniggered over! A Cardinal (in Italy addressed as 'Your Eminence') is indeed a Prince of the Church and outranks everyone other than the Holy Father and The Saints! Veritas Truth CARLO
	Judica me Deus


draig	Monday, 6. April 2009, 23:11 Post #9
Posts: 114 Group: Members Member #224 Joined: March 23, 2009	KatyA Sunday, 5. April 2009, 14:22 Now that is news to me. I always understood a Duke outranked a prince - which is why Prince Phillip was given the title Duke of Edinburgh One lives and learns. Prince Philip married HM QE II on 20 November 1947. He was originally a royal prince of Greece and Denmark, but renounced these titles before marriage and was known (briefly) as a commoner, Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten. The day before the wedding Philip was was granted the 'style' (note a 'style' is a mode of address and not a formal title) of 'His Royal Highness' by King George VI - an interesting case of a commoner with a royal 'style'! On the wedding day Philip was made Duke of Edinburgh (however the Dukedom is actually taken from the date of 'creation' of this peerage, the date he was formally enrobed as a Duke, in 1948). This was needed to stop Princess Elizabeth marrying a commoner - if a Prince (or Princess) was lower than a Duke then Philip would have been created a Prince to stop him outranking Princess Elizabeth! In the general order of precedence, Philip immediately follows the Queen only because this precedence was assigned to him by a royal warrant in 1952 - granted by HM QE II before her coronation. Prior to that royal warrant he had the precidence of the last dukedom and technically Philip would have been outranked by Prince Charles from his birth in 1948 (Charles holds the title of British Royal Prince by right of Blood - but even that was only possible after George VI changed the requirements for this 2 weeks before Charles was born) - however this was academic because, as a minor, Prince Charles would have had no formal duties and therefore would not have stood in any formal line of precedence. HM QE II only made Philip a Prince of the United Kingdom in 1957.



CARLO	Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 17:42 Post #10
Posts: 1,687 Group: Members Member #27 Joined: September 28, 2006	I say Draig old chap! What an impressive posting! You seem to be a man I could do business with! Oremus CARLO Edited by CARLO, Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 17:43.
	Judica me Deus


draig	Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 20:24 Post #11
Posts: 114 Group: Members Member #224 Joined: March 23, 2009	CARLO I say Draig old chap! What an impressive posting! CARLO! CARLO You seem to be a man I could do business with! You looking to off-load some surplus pompoms or something?



Rose of York	Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 21:04 Post #12
Administrator Posts: 14,538 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	draig Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 20:24 CARLO You seem to be a man I could do business with! You looking to off-load some surplus pompoms or something? He's after swapping them for a coronet, when he goes to The Lords.
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draig	Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 21:22 Post #13
Posts: 114 Group: Members Member #224 Joined: March 23, 2009	Rose of York Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 21:04 He's after swapping them for a coronet, when he goes to The Lords. But surely CARLO would be expecting The Lords to come to him?



Rose of York	Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 21:24 Post #14
Administrator Posts: 14,538 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	No. He likes the Ladies, provided they wear mantillas.
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CARLO	Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 22:18 Post #15
Posts: 1,687 Group: Members Member #27 Joined: September 28, 2006	Rose of York Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 21:24 No. He likes the Ladies, provided they wear mantillas. "In any gathering of ladies the mantilla clad traditionally always take precedence".
	Judica me Deus


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