New English Translation of the Mass

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New English Translation of the Mass
Topic Started: Wednesday, 31. October 2007, 21:39 (679 Views)
CARLO	Monday, 6. April 2009, 15:59 Post #226
Posts: 1,648 Group: Members Member #27 Joined: September 28, 2006	Derekap Monday, 6. April 2009, 14:56 When translating we must aim to express ourselves in our language what we would normally say, not a literal nor closely literal translation. The trouble is this rather depends on who 'we' are! Translations need to be accurate otherwise the meaning is not conveyed. In matters of religion this is fairly important! And some of us prefer a little better quality communication than street corner talk when addressing or God. I am not too worried about the accent of the speaker! Pax CARLO
	Judica me Deus


John Sweeney	Monday, 6. April 2009, 17:18 Post #227
Posts: 1,739 Group: Members Member #68 Joined: March 20, 2007	Fortunatus, I fear you are being selective in your reading. You supplied a link, which I accessed. The writers make it clear that much of early Christian worship was "free form" although they make a case for some sort of very loose format. That is for the first 100 years AD. For the next couple of hundred years they gain a bit of confidence and a bit more evidence and begin to argue that a loose form of unified service was beginning to take shape. They stress throughout that prayers were impromptu although they ask us to accept that there would be some uniformity because " no one would use different prayers each time". My original challenges were to the idea that the Latin mass had evolved naturally in some way from the Apostles. it clearly hasn't and no amount of spinning can make it so. John



Fortunatus	Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 21:42 Post #228
Posts: 718 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	Just goes to show how you can get two diametrically opposed views from the same basic facts, doesn't it? I read your post and conclude — purely from your own words — that the loose format of the early years eventually became "a loose form of unified service". Initially the prayers would be impromptu but as time passed and preachers and teachers became more aware of the values in e.g. the various epistles there would be some uniformity partly from this and partly from the fact that individual teachers would tend to return to themes and prayers that they had used before which seems reasonable human behaviour. The Mass evolved. The reference to Latin is, as I keep repeating, irrelevant. Eventually a series of synods and Councils pulled the various strands together and gradually unified them finally codifying them at Trent. Latin remained the language in which Church business was conducted because it was a universal language (and continued to be for centuries partly because it was the language of the Church and therefore of those who were educated, whcih I am prepared to admit is something of a circular argument!). It remains the official language of the Church to day essentially because a Universal Church needs a common language in which its official documents are promulgated. If you have this terrible hang-up about it being Latin, write to Benedict and suggest Esperanto or Ido instead. Or Pitman shorthand, if you like.



CARLO	Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 22:11 Post #229
Posts: 1,648 Group: Members Member #27 Joined: September 28, 2006	Fortunatus Tuesday, 7. April 2009, 21:42 If you have this terrible hang-up about it being Latin, write to Benedict and suggest Esperanto or Ido instead. Or Pitman shorthand, if you like. Or even US-English? I would think that UK-English is a minority language now in global terms. Pax CARLO
	Judica me Deus


Fortunatus	Wednesday, 8. April 2009, 11:32 Post #230
Posts: 718 Group: Members Member #98 Joined: September 3, 2007	I thought 'US-English' was one of the recognised oxymorons, like 'fun run' or 'airline food'. .... I'll get my flak jacket.



OsullivanB	Wednesday, 8. April 2009, 12:07 Post #231
Posts: 1,973 Group: Moderator Member #205 Joined: August 14, 2008	Rodney Schofield - The Pastoral Review January/February 2009 Inculturation - Accommodating pagan converts in the post-Constantinian Church Educated pagans were often dismayed at the way the Christian Church had pandered to the masses by accommodating their vulgar tastes - e.g. by the use of inelegant language in the liturgy.



CARLO	Wednesday, 8. April 2009, 23:20 Post #232
Posts: 1,648 Group: Members Member #27 Joined: September 28, 2006	OsullivanB Wednesday, 8. April 2009, 12:07 Rodney Schofield - The Pastoral Review January/February 2009 Inculturation - Accommodating pagan converts in the post-Constantinian Church Educated pagans were often dismayed at the way the Christian Church had pandered to the masses by accommodating their vulgar tastes - e.g. by the use of inelegant language in the liturgy. Say what you mean old chap! Salva me Save me CARLO
	Judica me Deus


OsullivanB	Wednesday, 8. April 2009, 23:52 Post #233
Posts: 1,973 Group: Moderator Member #205 Joined: August 14, 2008	I thought some might feel the rage of Caliban at seeing his own face in a glass, and others the rage of Caliban at not seeing his own face in the glass. I hope that makes things clearer. To help further, the quotation supports a view that the verbal infelicity of ICEL is a continuation of a Catholic tradition much older than the Council of Trent. It may indeed do more. I'm adding a because the last time I posted something intended not entirely in earnest (nor indeed entirely in jest) I was taken more serously than I had intended. Edited by OsullivanB, Wednesday, 8. April 2009, 23:59.



PJD	Thursday, 9. April 2009, 08:18 Post #234
Posts: 2,341 Group: Members Member #11 Joined: September 26, 2006	"I'm adding a because the last time I posted something intended not entirely in earnest (nor indeed entirely in jest) I was taken more serously than I had intended." You must not adhere to scruples in that respect OsB; that was entirely due to my 'density' and nothing more. PJD



KatyA	Monday, 15. June 2009, 10:30 Post #235
Administrator Posts: 5,199 Group: Admin Member #6 Joined: September 26, 2006	Catholic Culture has an interesting article on How the New Missal is Being Translated, and Why The author quotes Bishop Serratelli : Quote: In the liturgy, the words addressed to God and the words spoken to the people voice the Faith of the Church. They are not simply the expression of one individual in one particular place at one time in history. The words used in the liturgy also pass on the faith of the Church from one generation to the next…. The liturgy is the source of the divine life given through the Church as sacrament of salvation. As Pope Paul VI once said, it is also “the first school of the spiritual life, the first gift which we can give to the Christian people who believe and pray with us….”



Deleted User	Wednesday, 22. July 2009, 22:36 Post #236
Deleted User	Not sure where this should be posted, moderators feel free to move if required. While browsing something else I came across the text of the Tantum ergo and a translation, I just wonder if St Thomas Aquinas in his wisdom was warning about the change from the Tridentine to the modern or the 1970 missal and the new translation. Any way it made me chuckle thinking about it. Mediaeval Latin hymn written by St Thomas Aquinas Tantum ergo Sacramentum Veneremur cernui: Et antiquum documentum Novo cedat ritui: Praestet fides supplementum Sensuum defectui. Genitori, Genitoque Laus et jubilatio, Salus, honor, virtus quoque Sit et benedictio: Procedenti ab utroque Compar sit laudatio. Amen. Translation Down in adoration falling, Lo! the sacred Host we hail, Lo! o'er ancient forms departing Newer rites of grace prevail; Faith for all defects supplying, Where the feeble senses fail. To the everlasting Father, And the Son Who reigns on high With the Holy Ghost proceeding Forth from Each eternally, Be salvation, honor, blessing, Might and endless majesty. Amen.
Deleted User


Rose of York	Wednesday, 22. July 2009, 23:09 Post #237
Administrator Posts: 14,099 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Penfold, I take it that was posted tongue-in-cheek?
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Deleted User	Thursday, 23. July 2009, 06:14 Post #238
Deleted User	Oh yes Rose
Deleted User


CARLO	Thursday, 23. July 2009, 22:03 Post #239
Posts: 1,648 Group: Members Member #27 Joined: September 28, 2006	Penfold Thursday, 23. July 2009, 06:14 Oh yes Rose Pull yourself together man! Libera me Deliver me! CARLO
	Judica me Deus


Derekap	Saturday, 25. July 2009, 15:33 Post #240
Posts: 3,357 Group: Members Member #14 Joined: September 26, 2006	Would someone please translate Bishop Serratelli's English?
	Derekap


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