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| The Liturgical Moanararium | |
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| Topic Started: Thursday, 19. March 2009, 14:47 (665 Views) | |
| Rose of York | Thursday, 19. March 2009, 14:47 Post #1 |
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If anybody has any moans about liturgical matters, here is a place speciically for the purpose. It will save a lot of time, splitting threads. Fire away, folks. |
  Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| John Sweeney | Friday, 20. March 2009, 19:22 Post #2 |
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Rose, I confess I find all liturgy boring. At least our traditional Mass is in English which makes it less so but still bad. I feel the same about secular ceremonial. Why can't we just cut to the chase without all this flummery? The ritual is supposed to meet some deep human need and it must be so , for most people seem to love it. For me, it is a constant battle to keep focused on it until we come to the Heart of the rite. John |
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| KatyA | Thursday, 11. June 2009, 11:04 Post #3 |
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It's Corpus Christi (OK so it will be celebrated on Sunday, that's a different moan) and we didn't have the usual morning Mass - there was a Eucharistic Service. Fortunately, I could not attend,but my husband did and when I collected him he remarked that every 5 minutes he was thinking "It's a good job Katy isn't here" He said it was just like a Mass without the consecration, The "celebrant" even went behind the altar, which he thought was not permitted. Is it? Surely, even when a Eucharistic Service is necessary it should be in a completely different format from the Mass. Why wonder at the shortage of priests if lay men and women behave as if they are ordained priests. 
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| Deleted User | Thursday, 11. June 2009, 11:11 Post #4 |
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Ministers behind the alter not prohibited. It does seem to me that the whole issue of Eucharistic services does need better enforcement of the regulations. In a way I am reminded of Mr Brown telling us all he is going to reform parliment and introduce new practices, someone should piont out the rules are there and should be observed. eucharistic ministers have a useful function but I do challenge the eletism that some adopt. I think it would help underline the subordinate, extraordinary nature of their ministry if there were aset limit to their term of office after which they should return to the pews. |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 11. June 2009, 14:52 Post #5 |
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When I was an EMHC we went up to and behind the Altar after the Readings (including the Gospel and Bidding Prayers) and placed the Ciborium on the Altar. We then led most of the prayers from Holy Mass from the Our Father onwards. I returned the booklet on my retirement from the duty but I am sure they were the instructions then. |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 11. June 2009, 15:22 Post #6 |
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My moan is the tendency to be prejudiced against and readily critical of EMsHC. Often there is even reluctant acceptance of their visiting and taking the Blessed Sacrament to the housebound which would not often be practical for the one priest parish. My first experience of leading a service was when due to a misunderstanding between the pp and his then assistant neither turned-up. There was a weekday congregation of about two dozen people and though I had attended only two such services I decided I should go ahead - which I did very nervously. It was only when I later 'phoned the pp and he reassured me that it was alright that I calmed down. Fortunately I had access to the Sacristy and the Tabernacle key. |
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| Derekap | Thursday, 11. June 2009, 15:38 Post #7 |
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When I was a little boy I used to wonder why we asked God to forgive our trespasses instead of our sins. Many years later we still do and I still wonder; and whilst I would wish God to forgive my debts, the forgiveness of my sins is more important. Privately, I do ask God to forgive my sins. The one thing that makes me cringe is the phrase: "All Honour and Glory is Yours" instead of: "All Honour and Glory are Yours" |
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| Quicunque vult | Thursday, 11. June 2009, 16:09 Post #8 |
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Derekap The doxology: you will be delighted to hear that this (among many other infelicities in the present ICEL text) will be corrected in the new translation. (I would quote it, but I fear that I might be in breach of copyright.) QV |
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| Rose of York | Thursday, 11. June 2009, 16:19 Post #9 |
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Here is a link for those who may want to read it. United States Conference of Bishops |
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Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards | |
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| Derekap | Saturday, 13. June 2009, 16:45 Post #10 |
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I have glanced through the "Debating Copy" of the new English Translation of Holy Mass. It has reaffirmed my sincere feelings that its introduction whilst pleasing those who want a much more literal translation of Latin and perhaps a more poetical expression it will not be readily accepted by the majority. |
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| Deleted User | Saturday, 13. June 2009, 17:10 Post #11 |
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Derekap I agree I think this translation is far from the comfortable spoken English with which most of us are comfortable. I remember learning French and the teacher, he praised those who had the whit to interpret the text rather than translate it. It is however been a long time in preparation and the sooner we get the go ahead the sooner we can start introducing new missals. This weekend being Corpus Christi there will probably be a lot of children making their 1st Holy Communion and receiving missals as a gift. For some years I have discouraged parents and others from making such a gift knowing it to be of limited shelf life, but it is a traditional and often treasured gift. Once introduced I think a few classes and preparation will be helpful and after a while most will get used to it but I doubt many will ever like it. |
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| Fortunatus | Saturday, 13. June 2009, 23:06 Post #12 |
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I think I need an explanation, John. Do I read you as saying that Mass ought to consist of the priest walking up to the altar, picking up a piece of unleavened bread, saying "This is my Body", ditto for the wine, dishing out some consecrated bread and wine, all go home? If so, then (forgive me) I think you have totally and completely misunderstood what the Mass is, what it is for, and what it is about. And also (forgive me, again) I would challenge your description of yourself as a Catholic. If not, then what exactly do you mean by "cutting to the chase", "flummery", and "the Heart of the rite"? And explain, please, how it is possible to have a "rite" without "ritual"? |
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| Deleted User | Sunday, 14. June 2009, 05:53 Post #13 |
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Fortunatus John's comments are not uncommon in an age of fast food, tabloid news and sound bite politics. We live in a generation that is increasingly unimpressed by ritual. The art of conversation, even in the officer’s mess is dying and more and more people communicate in course "Estuary English". Therefore, John is expressing what many are muttering. One of my fears about this new translation is that it further restricts the ability of priests, such as me, to enliven and articulate the Mass so that it transcends the "Dull & Boring". The reforms of Vatican II were born out of the trenches of WW 1 and a recognition that the Church had to be more accessible and responsive to the needs of people. A lesson not learned by those who have lived in times that are more comfortable. When celebrating mass with rockets landing a few hundred yards away brevity has its appeal in the comfort of the UK I like to savour every moment. A quick snack is sometimes the only option but I prefer to sit at table and enjoy a properly cooked meal, a glass of wine and good company. Vat II was meant to allow flexibility; alas too many opt for the snack and never experience a proper meal. We need to teach/learn that the length of a service does not determine its quality; a bowl of soup with a decent bread roll can be a good quality lunch. If hungry, an OXO cube boiled up in an old can with few a sorrel leaves is a banquette, so too the Mass should be flexible, adaptable but above all appropriate occasion. |
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| PJD | Sunday, 14. June 2009, 11:16 Post #14 |
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"When celebrating mass with rockets landing a few hundred yards away brevity has its appeal" I assume naturally that even in those circumstances the Mass includes all of the 'proper' so that the sacrificial element is completed. PJD |
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| Deleted User | Sunday, 14. June 2009, 13:36 Post #15 |
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Nothing omitted. Just said a little more quickly, though I hope not irreverently. Interestingly prior to my arrival the Canadian chaplain had halted the Mass and taken to the shelter inviting people to return later and resume the service. As garrison chaplain I decreed that once the mass had begun it would continue and people were free to hit the deck, seek shelter or whatever but I would remain and continue with the mass. This was not bravado it was just that having seen the ineffectiveness of the shelters I reasoned that the chapel was probably safer and if we were going to be in receipt of a direct hit the chapel would be a better place for my body to be torn apart than a converted drainpipe. 100% of my congregation agreed without hesitation, the Canadian had no choice he was under my authority. |
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