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Another Vatican Controversy; Archbisop of Linz
Topic Started: Wednesday, 4. February 2009, 00:10 (534 Views)
OsullivanB

Wagnerdammerung* seems OK though.

*The final part of the Bishop's Ring Cycle. Attentive followers will recall that in an earlier part we heard the immortal: "Du bist der Linz".
Edited by OsullivanB, Monday, 16. February 2009, 18:26.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer
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Mairtin
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Rose of York
Friday, 13. February 2009, 22:59
Those who carry on in an autocratic manner must know people are unhappy, and that it is contributing to the departure of many, so why would they continue with their idiotic behaviour?

Its not as though we are trying to dictate on matters of faith and morals.
What perturbs me, Rose is not the autocracy - that is the inherent nature of the Church - it is the way that those cloistered in the Vatican, the Pope and his advisors, seem totally divorced from reality.

Either they didn't know about Williamson's hatred of the Jews - I'm deliberately calling a spade a spade her, it's that hatred that is the real problem, the stuff about the Holocaust was only an expression of it - and the fact that the same hatred pervades SSPX or they didn't grasp the problems that would cause; they didn't know about Wagner's hatred of gay people - I'm calling a spade a spade again - or once more, they didn't grasp the problems that would cause.

Either way, it's an awful reflection of how our leaders either don't know or don't care about how our Church is perceived and the difficulty that creates in spreading the Good News :bl:
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Gerard

Quote:
 
What perturbs me, Rose is not the autocracy - that is the inherent nature of the Church


It disturbs me (the autocracy)
it is not supposed to be the nature of the church.
leadership is supposed to be collaborative.
leadership is supposed to be servant leadership.

I see none of that.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Let us assume a priest would obviously be a good bishop.

He may be ideal for London or Birmingham, where city life is the norm, but he may be lacking in understanding of life in, say, Cumbria. How would the men in the Vatican know that?

Another may be highly suited for a remote rural area but not for a large University city. How would the men in the Vatican know that?
Keep the Faith!

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MickCook
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Rose of York
Monday, 16. February 2009, 22:29
Let us assume a priest would obviously be a good bishop.

He may be ideal for London or Birmingham, where city life is the norm, but he may be lacking in understanding of life in, say, Cumbria. How would the men in the Vatican know that?

Another may be highly suited for a remote rural area but not for a large University city. How would the men in the Vatican know that?
The selection of a Bishop can differ from one country to the next.

Catholic Encyclopedia
 
In England the canons of the cathedral select by a majority of the votes, at three successive ballots, three candidates for the vacant episcopal see. Their names, arranged in alphabetical order, are transmitted to the Propaganda and to the archbishop of the province, or to the senior suffragan of the province, if the question is one of the election of an archbishop. The bishops of the province discuss the merits of the candidates and transmit their observations to the Propaganda. Since 1847 the bishops are empowered, if they so desire, to propose other names for the choice of the Holy See, and a decision of the Propaganda (25 April, 3 May, 1904) confirms this practice (Instruction of Propaganda, 21 April, 1852; "Collectanea S. C. de Propagandâ Fide", Rome, 1893. no. 42; Taunton, 87-88). Analogous enactments are in force in Ireland.


The Vatican has a good idea of who to select for a vacant episccopal see because they are informed by the see itself.
:)
Mick
The Cook Companies
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Rose of York
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MickCook
Monday, 16. February 2009, 23:05
Catholic Encyclopedia
 
In England the canons of the cathedral select by a majority of the votes, at three successive ballots, three candidates for the vacant episcopal see. Their names, arranged in alphabetical order, are transmitted to the Propaganda and to the archbishop of the province, or to the senior suffragan of the province, if the question is one of the election of an archbishop. The bishops of the province discuss the merits of the candidates and transmit their observations to the Propaganda. Since 1847 the bishops are empowered, if they so desire, to propose other names for the choice of the Holy See, and a decision of the Propaganda (25 April, 3 May, 1904) confirms this practice (Instruction of Propaganda, 21 April, 1852; "Collectanea S. C. de Propagandâ Fide", Rome, 1893. no. 42; Taunton, 87-88). Analogous enactments are in force in Ireland.



Code of Canon Law. 1983

Quote:
 
Can. 377 §1. The Supreme Pontiff freely appoints bishops or confirms those legitimately elected.

§2. At least every three years, bishops of an ecclesiastical province or, where circumstances suggest it, of a conference of bishops, are in common counsel and in secret to compose a list of presbyters, even including members of institutes of consecrated life, who are more suitable for the episcopate. They are to send it to the Apostolic See, without prejudice to the right of each bishop individually to make known to the Apostolic See the names of presbyters whom he considers worthy of and suited to the episcopal function.

§3. Unless it is legitimately established otherwise, whenever a diocesan or coadjutor bishop must be appointed, as regards what is called the ternus to be proposed to the Apostolic See, the pontifical legate is to seek individually and to communicate to the Apostolic See together with his own opinion the suggestions of the metropolitan and suffragans of the province to which the diocese to be provided for belongs or with which it is joined in some grouping, and the suggestions of the president of the conference of bishops. The pontifical legate, moreover, is to hear some members of the college of consultors and cathedral chapter and, if he judges it expedient, is also to seek individually and in secret the opinion of others from both the secular and non-secular clergy and from laity outstanding in wisdom.

§4. Unless other provision has been legitimately made, a diocesan bishop who judges that an auxiliary should be given to his diocese is to propose to the Apostolic See a list of at least three presbyters more suitable for this office.

§5. In the future, no rights and privileges of election, nomination, presentation, or designation of bishops are granted to civil authorities.
Keep the Faith!

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Deleted User
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Do we therefore assume that normal procedure was followed here, and the Holy Father chose the Bishop elect for Linz from names recommended to him? If so, both his advisers and the media did a pretty good hatchet job following the announcement.
Watching the developments, both at Linz and concerning the lifting of the excommunications,I've found two things springing constantly to mind; one being
Pope Benedict's words at his inaugural Mass, “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.” and the other is the dream of St John Bosco.

KatyA
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MickCook
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As I said in my post above, the selection of a bishop can differ from one country to the next: Here's what the Catholic Encylopedia says about Austria etc.

Catholic Encylopedia
 
In Austria (with the exception of some episcopal sees), in Bavaria, in Spain, in Portugal and in Peru, the Government presents to the sovereign pontiff the candidates for the episcopate. It was so in France, and in several South American Republics before the rupture or denunciation of the concordats between the states and the Apostolic See.


Father Gerhard Maria Wagner, the contraversial Austrian auxiliary bishop of Linz has asked to be relieved of the post.

Who is actually responsible for this mess, I have no idea. It wasn't me, honest!

:)
Mick
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Rose of York
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Can we be sure procedures have not been altered since 1904?
Keep the Faith!

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I rather think that the 1983 Code of Canon Law supersedes the information in the encyclopaedia and applies universally - but I could be wrong

KatyA
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Gerard

KatyA
Monday, 16. February 2009, 23:49
Do we therefore assume that normal procedure was followed here, and the Holy Father chose the Bishop elect for Linz from names recommended to him? If so, both his advisers and the media did a pretty good hatchet job following the announcement.
Watching the developments, both at Linz and concerning the lifting of the excommunications,I've found two things springing constantly to mind; one being
Pope Benedict's words at his inaugural Mass, “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.” and the other is the dream of St John Bosco.

KatyA
Really ?

What came to my mind was that this pope doesnt listen to anyone other than himself.

Gerry
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Friday, 13. February 2009, 18:42
Quote:
 
VIENNA (Reuters)

Austrian Catholic Church holds meeting amid bishops uproar

- Austria's Catholic Church will hold a crisis session on Monday to discuss an uproar over a new provincial bishop and the Vatican's readmission of a banned bishop who denies the Holocaust, officials said on Friday.

Faced with rising numbers of Catholics quitting the Church and protests from clergy, Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn called all diocesan bishops to the one-day meeting to "give our best to overcome the crisis."

Austrian Catholicism is in turmoil because Pope Benedict, one week after readmitting arch-traditionalist Bishop Richard Williamson, named an auxiliary bishop in Linz who said Hurricane Katrina in 2005 was God punishing New Orleans for its sins.

The two appointments, both apparently without consultation with local churches, sparked doubt about Benedict's leadership and concern the Church was turning increasingly conservative.

Schoenborn said the uproar had caused "irritation and resignation" and the Church needed "damage control" for the sake of its future, according to the Catholic news agency Kathpress.
Just extended the emboldening of that text...

Schoenborn is exactly right - the "damage control" is the person and policies of the present Holy Father. The Liberal mafia are running scared.

Quote:
 
In one of the bluntest criticisms from a prelate, Salzburg Archbishop Alois Kothgasser said on Tuesday the SSPX bishops seemed to be heretics who had shut themselves out of the Church.


Let him who is without sin etc.... That's right, put the stone down, +Salzburg.

Quote:
 
He also said the Church must not shrink into "a sect ... with few but strictly obedient members" -- a veiled criticism of Pope Benedict, who once suggested the Church might have to reduce to a hard core to survive the secular modernist age.


Don't worry, I am sure there is a place for even you, within Benedict's reforms. Whether you'll still be able to hold your Clown Masses in your Cathedral or not, I don't know.
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Gerard

See Rose's post below
Edited by Gerard, Tuesday, 17. February 2009, 12:54.
"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).
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Rose of York
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Patrick
Tuesday, 17. February 2009, 12:22
Don't worry, I am sure there is a place for even you, within Benedict's reforms. Whether you'll still be able to hold your Clown Masses in your Cathedral or not, I don't know.
You know perfectly well that silly video of a supposed Clown Mass was not made in a Catholic church.

A place for even whom?

Is this a diversionary tactic?
Keep the Faith!

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Angus Toanimo
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Rose of York
Tuesday, 17. February 2009, 12:46
Patrick
Tuesday, 17. February 2009, 12:22
Don't worry, I am sure there is a place for even you, within Benedict's reforms. Whether you'll still be able to hold your Clown Masses in your Cathedral or not, I don't know.
You know perfectly well that silly video of a supposed Clown Mass was not made in a Catholic church.

A place for even whom?

Is this a diversionary tactic?
Oh no, Rose, I am not referring to the video of the Clown Mass that took place in the USA. There is a picture online [I'll try and locate it] of the Archbishop of Salzburg and his Clown Mass.

No diversionary tactic at all.
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