Child & Vulnerable Adult Abuse In The Church

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Child & Vulnerable Adult Abuse In The Church; Is it taken seriously?
Topic Started: Thursday, 20. September 2007, 20:35 (2,147 Views)
Ned	Thursday, 20. September 2007, 20:35 Post #1
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	I should explain that I'm probably more aware of this problem than most people. For several years I had a little post-retirement job with a firm of solicitors. It involved some sorting of papers and photocopying, and because of my age I was sometimes asked to do that work on some of the nastiest papers. It really is very unpleasant, and some of the nastiest aspects of it - the extent of the criminal cameraderie, for example - don't come out in the newspapers. The Church's official, public, attitude to this problem has always been spot-on and absolutely correct. The problem was is that other, contradictory, secret advice was also given. Furthermore in some dioceses even more latitude was being allowed. And the corruption went wider than that - sometimes money was being misappropriated on a large scale. There has been a big change now, and the bishops are ruthlessly forcing through reforms. Unfortunately there is a totally unjustified resistance by some of the clergy - both to the Nolan Report and to the recent Cumberlege Report. But things will change - because they have to.



Rose of York	Thursday, 20. September 2007, 20:46 Post #2
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Ned Sep 20 2007, 09:35 PM There has been a big change now, and the bishops are ruthlessly forcing through reforms. Unfortunately there is a totally unjustified resistance by some of the clergy - both to the Nolan Report and to the recent Cumberlege Report. But things will change - because they have to. Not only some clergy, also some laity. There is resistance among some hard working servants of the parishes, including sadly some EMHCs and catechists of my acquaintance who objected to being subject to CRB checks. They misunderstand, they just do not grasp that no parish priest is allowed to decide that any individual can be trusted to be alone with children or vulnerable adults. The fact that a person has been doing valuable parish work for donkeys years is no guarantee that they have no skeletons in the cupboard. Most of the people in and outside the church, who were imprisoned for abuse, were popular, because they were so nice. Of course they were nice, they wanted to worm their way in. I would not wish to exclude any person from Mass attendance on the grounds of committing a particular sin, but we do have to protect vulnerable people.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Ned	Thursday, 20. September 2007, 21:14 Post #3
Posts: 674 Group: Members Member #61 Joined: March 1, 2007	Rose of York Sep 20 2007, 08:46 PM Not only some clergy, also some laity. There is resistance among some hard working servants of the parishes, including sadly some EMHCs and catechists of my acquaintance who objected to being subject to CRB checks. They misunderstand, they just do not grasp that no parish priest is allowed to decide that any individual can be trusted to be alone with children or vulnerable adults. The fact that a person has been doing valuable parish work for donkeys years is no guarantee that they have no skeletons in the cupboard. Most of the people in and outside the church, who were imprisoned for abuse, were popular, because they were so nice. Of course they were nice, they wanted to worm their way in. I would not wish to exclude any person from Mass attendance on the grounds of committing a particular sin, but we do have to protect vulnerable people. Rose You have said so many wise and important things there in only a few words. The quality of vetting procedures is all important, and it isn't just the Criminal Record Check. But one thing you've mentioned is one thing that would be relevant to so many threads, but everyone's been too timid to mention it - ENTRYISM. I've seen it several times. I can't believe that others here haven't seen it too. Not just by hom osex uals but other little special interest groups as well. Maybe it's worth a separate thread. Regards Ned



Rose of York	Thursday, 20. September 2007, 21:37 Post #4
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Ned Sep 20 2007, 10:14 PM But one thing you've mentioned is one thing that would be relevant to so many threads, but everyone's been too timid to mention it - ENTRYISM. I've seen it several times. I can't believe that others here haven't seen it too. Not just by hom osex uals but other little special interest groups as well. Maybe it's worth a separate thread. Regards Ned Ned there is no reason why you should not start any discussion that is relevant to the Church. I like it when other people kick off new discussions. :D
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Timothy	Monday, 7. January 2008, 11:22 Post #5
Posts: 299 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: May 1, 2007	See article: Pope calls for continuous prayer to rid priesthood of paedophilia - The Times Quote: Pope Benedict XVI has instructed Roman Catholics to pray “in perpetuity” to cleanse the Church of paedophile clergy. All dioceses, parishes, monasteries, convents and seminaries will be expected to organise continuous daily prayers to express penitence and to purify the clergy. Vatican officials said that every parish or institution should designate a person or group each day to conduct continuous prayers for the Church to rid itself of the scandal of sexual abuse by clergy. Alternatively, churches in the same diocese could share the duty. Prayer would take place in one parish for 24 hours, then move to another. I think many non-Catholics may see this as some "PR" style stunt, however I think it is a wonderful idea, and not a minute too soon; and I'm confident many people will take part in it. Would it have been perhaps more useful however to accompany this with a stricter universal code for the protection of children rather than asking us simply to pray, as we can also act practically to reduce the risk from paedophiles.
Posts: 299 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: May 1, 2007	"An adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelty." "Having a clear faith, according to the credo of the church, is often labelled as fundamentalism." Pope Benedict XVI


Paduan	Monday, 7. January 2008, 13:42 Post #6
Posts: 205 Group: Members Member #108 Joined: December 2, 2007	I can foresee some 'religiously atheist' secularists spouting responses to this along the lines of 'the Pope praying only for the Church to be cleansed and not being interested in the curse of paedophilia beyond the Church's borders'. You can never win with those people...
	I have a blog! - dotCatholic


Gerard	Monday, 7. January 2008, 13:59 Post #7
Posts: 3,099 Group: Members Member #12 Joined: September 26, 2006	Interesting point Paduan. What about those who covered up the issue? Moved priests around? Provided diplomatic shelter from police investigations? Gerry
	"The institutional and charismatic aspects are quasi coessential to the Church's constitution" (Pope John Paul II, 1998).


James	Monday, 7. January 2008, 14:09 Post #8
James Posts: 1,108 Group: Members Member #54 Joined: January 13, 2007	Agree, And what if it is an illness or compulsary behavour which some individuals may be trying to fight. There is no mention of care. At work nowadays - if you have a cumpulsary tendency - be it drink or drugs, whatever, the policy is to declare it and the company will do what the can to help. It will, it most cases mean taken off regular duties into something where others may not suffer. So, why not pray that the priests may have the courage to declare themselves and the church the wisdom to deal with the problem properly on an individual basis - not just shove them around or get rid of them or sweep them under the mat. So what - get rid of them and send them out into the world - but now with a grievance and a feeling of abandonment.



Clare	Monday, 7. January 2008, 14:09 Post #9
Wacko Schismatic Traditionalist Woman Posts: 3,083 Group: Members Member #70 Joined: March 27, 2007	Paduan Jan 7 2008, 01:42 PM I can foresee some 'religiously atheist' secularists spouting responses to this along the lines of 'the Pope praying only for the Church to be cleansed and not being interested in the curse of paedophilia beyond the Church's borders'. But that would involve them acknowledging the fact that a proclivity to paedophilia isn't confined to celibate men!
	S.A.G. My attempt at a blog.


James	Monday, 7. January 2008, 23:29 Post #10
James Posts: 1,108 Group: Members Member #54 Joined: January 13, 2007	James Jan 7 2008, 02:09 PM Agree, And what if it is an illness or compulsary behavour which some individuals may be trying to fight. There is no mention of care. At work nowadays - if you have a cumpulsary tendency - be it drink or drugs, whatever, the policy is to declare it and the company will do what the can to help. It will, it most cases mean taken off regular duties into something where others may not suffer. So, why not pray that the priests may have the courage to declare themselves and the church the wisdom to deal with the problem properly on an individual basis - not just shove them around or get rid of them or sweep them under the mat. So what - get rid of them and send them out into the world - but now with a grievance and a feeling of abandonment. And MOST importantly Lord. Let us pray for anybody who has been abused in their innonence that they may find some sort of forgivness and that they may find a purpose in life and try to let go of these experiences. Amen



Rose of York	Monday, 7. January 2008, 23:55 Post #11
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	Pious people will pray, and they will turn their backs upon people who admit to having reported concerns about individuals. The evil menace of paedophilia will remain within the Church for so long as people refuse to accept that the nice, charming, kind, loving person (priest or lay) who serves the parish could possibly not all that saintly. I am not suggesting we should conduct a witch hunt, but quite a few people who personally knew priests who had been questioned or arrested told me "Nothing will come of it. Everybody who knows this person knows he would never harm a child." In one case the accused had already pleaded guilty. The others were found guilty. We should pray that the Church be rid of paedophiles, whether they be clerical or lay, but we must also face up to our own responsibilities.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Emee	Tuesday, 8. January 2008, 00:02 Post #12
Posts: 1,278 Group: Members Member #20 Joined: September 26, 2006	Timothy Jan 7 2008, 12:22 PM Quote: Would it have been perhaps more useful however to accompany this with a stricter universal code for the protection of children rather than asking us simply to pray, as we can also act practically to reduce the risk from paedophiles. Timothy If Clifton Diocese is typical of other Dioceses we now have very strict, well defined child protection procedures in place. I have had to read the whole booklet as part of my role as a Children's Liturgy Group worker. Please God the Church will never need to use them.



James	Tuesday, 8. January 2008, 00:03 Post #13
James Posts: 1,108 Group: Members Member #54 Joined: January 13, 2007	Rose of York Jan 7 2008, 11:55 PM Pious people will pray, and they will turn their backs upon people who admit to having reported concerns about individuals. Rose. Is this personal. I have not turned my back and I have spoken with people abused by priests.



Rose of York	Tuesday, 8. January 2008, 00:06 Post #14
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	James Jan 8 2008, 12:03 AM Rose. Is this personal. Certainly not, James. When I typed that I had no forum member in mind.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


Rose of York	Tuesday, 8. January 2008, 00:32 Post #15
Administrator Posts: 14,517 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: September 25, 2006	James Jan 8 2008, 12:03 AM Rose of York Jan 7 2008, 11:55 PM Pious people will pray, and they will turn their backs upon people who admit to having reported concerns about individuals. Rose. Is this personal. I have not turned my back and I have spoken with people abused by priests. James I did my previous reply hurriedly in case you logged off before reading it. I know of an instance of a priest being reported of allegedchild abuse. It was after the Church had tightened up procedures. That priest was never suspended or charged, so I presume it was found there was no case to answer. A person who was wrongly suspected of having made the report, was ostracised by "good parishioners". The point I was making was, that in these cases, police are, nowadays, always involved (if procedures are followed). It is for them to decide whether there are grounds for prosecution. It is not for us to assume guilt or innocence until a trial has taken place. I assure you James, my posting was not personally aimed at you or any member of any Catholic forum on which I post.
	$Posted Image$ Catholic and proud of it! Talk to God before Mass. Talk to each other afterwards


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