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Catholic History in Britain; how does it affect today?
Topic Started: Thursday, 29. January 2009, 02:05 (666 Views)
Rose of York
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KatyA
Tuesday, 28. April 2009, 23:40
Mercatornet have published an interesting article by Joanna Bogle "Henry VIII: petulant, lustful greedy - but never protestant"
Quote:
 
Thomas More, the Chancellor of England, and John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester, both saw an urgent need for change. Long before he clashed with the king over the latter’s demands for support in abandoning his wife and marrying his mistress, Fisher was pioneering reforms in the education of clergy – he effectively established the Library at the University of Cambridge in a modern form – and in their pastoral training. There are touching accounts of him visiting the sick and dying, showing his priests by practical example how they should minister.

Complete article at mercatornet
Here is another interesting snippet of Catholic history in Britain.

I bet few members of this forum know that the dear departed Cardinal John Carmel Heenan, Archbishop of Westminster, used to carry people out of burning buildings when was an Air Raid Patrol warden during the London blitz.

Another snippet - when he was at Leeds, we all knew who owned the push bike that was chained to the Cathedral railings - Bishop Heenan! He used to cycle a few miles to his office, and always spared a moment for school pupils waiting at tram stops. Yes, I went to school on a tram. Has anybody else here been blessed by a bishop on a bike?
Keep the Faith!

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william of bow
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The Catholic faith never died away during the persecution days; sometimes it had to go deep underground, and the faithful sometimes went for literally years without a Mass.

Rose and some other posters on this thread may give the impression that the Irish Immigrants brought (back) the Catholic faith to these shores in the 18th and 19th century. This is not so.

Cumberland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancaster, Yorkshire, Cheshire, north Wales, the West country. What do these areas all have in common? Well, during the (English) Civil War these areas consistently and loyally supported the King. And why? Because these were areras of especially strong Catholic belief. And King Charles, if not actually a Catholic himself, had a Queen who was, and he was not minded to persecute the Catholics as his father had.

We are only now beginning to revise our view of the so called 'Protestant Ascendancy' under the Tudors. My own, favourite story is of Mary - often called ''' by some protestant historians. In fact, compared to her half-sister Elizabeth Mary had a pretty low 'kill rate' where the so called Protestant martyrs are concerned. Mary was actually a favourite of the London mob, ever an important weather vein of things political back then. Why? Because she publically disrespected her brother Edward's ban on, among other things the Missal and the Rosary. Now he was a real anti-catholic fanatic and thank God he died so young. When Mary ascended to the throne she was mobbed by the London crowds. Statues of Our Lady were taken out of hiding places and processed in the streets in honour not just of Our Lady but also of that other Mary.

It was her politics, particularly her bad decision regarding an alliance with Spain that did for her with the ruling elite. Not her faith per se.

Elizabeth was a complex thinker about her faith. I believe that Elizabeth actually really did believe in the real presence of Christ on the Altar after Transubstantiation. Certainly she had some lively debates with various protestant 'divines' on this matter. Yet, politically she was a through-and-through protestant.Although, again it might be more correct to say of Elizabeth that she was the first thoroughly nationalist English Queen.

William
Edited by william of bow, Friday, 1. May 2009, 10:04.
William of Bow

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Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed: a passage which some have considered as a prophecy of modern journalism.
[G.K.Chesterton]



Check my Blog: http://www.williamonthehill.typepad.co.uk
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Rose of York
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william of bow
Friday, 1. May 2009, 10:02
Rose and some other posters on this thread may give the impression that the Irish Immigrants brought (back) the Catholic faith to these shores in the 18th and 19th century. This is not so.
William you touched a raw nerve. I am descended from Irish immigrants, but thanks to my parents, teachers, priests and nuns I have always been aware that thanks to the recusants, the Catholic faith was kept alive in England.

My avatar is the white rose, emblem of Yorkshire, the county of my birth. 61 Yorkshiremen and women died for the preservation of the Catholic faith. Most Yorkshire Catholics are descended from Irish immigrants, but we take tremendous pride in "our" recusants. See page 2 of this thread, with my references to Tyburn and Chideock, Dorset. Click the links, there is plenty there about recusants in Yorkshire and other counties.

My postings on page 1 are about the prejudice experienced by Irish immigrants. The Irish immigrants dug deep in their pockets to build the Victorian churches. The recusants gave land, and added beautiful embelishments, such as stained glass, statues and fine altars fit for the sacrifice of the Mass.

Here is a little list of snippets from my postings:


Quote:
 


Click here, see the church where I was baptised, it is totally unspoilt.
http://www.stmarybatley.co.uk/high%20altar.html

The shell was paid for by contributions from the congregation. The altar and stained glass were provided by a recusant family who had kept the Catholic faith throughout the days when Catholicism was outlawed.

Google for
Phrase Margaret Clitherow
Word York

and

Phrase Nicholas Postgate
Word Egton

http://70.84.222.87/index.php?title=Margaret_Clitherow%2C_Venerable
http://www.lovingit.co.uk/2008/07/the-postgate-rally.html
http://ca.geocities.com/patriciablackburn2004/HeartsOfOak/contents.html

The villages of Ugthorpe and Egton remained Catholic during recusant times (ie when Catholicism was illegal in this country). I last visited there in about 1992. There was an Anglican church but the village still revolved around St Hedda's, the Catholic Church, which has a shrine to Father Postgate, complete with his stole, breviary and tiny little chalice.
Here is a very good site about Margaret Clitherow

http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/margaret_martyr.htm

Yorkshire was not the only place with recusants. There were many in Lancashire, Dorset, and other counties. It just happens that I am familiar with the tales of the Yorkshire recusants, than the others.
Mary Ward
http://middlesbrough-diocese.org.uk/1740/mary-ward/

Chideock martyrs:
http://myancestors.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/the-chideock-martyrs/

their shrine
http://www.chideockmartyrschurch.org.uk/

Cuthbert Mayne:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuthbert_Mayne

Tyburn Convent, built on the site of the gallows where martyrs were hung, in London
http://www.tyburnconvent.org.uk/home/index.html

a twentieth century Scots woman:

A twentieth century Scotish woman, Venerable Margaret Sinclair, biscuit factory worker, trade unionist, and nun:
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/margaret_sinclair.htm


I have held in my hands the stole and breviary that belonged to Father Nicholas Postgate, martyr of the moors, visited St Margaret Clitherow's home and the Bar Convent, and Launceston Castle, where Cuthbert Mayne was executed.

:


Keep the Faith!

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SeanJ
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Rose of York
Friday, 1. May 2009, 11:09
My avatar is the white rose, emblem of Yorkshire, the county of my birth.
Silly me. I thought it was a daisy.

Sean
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Rose of York
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I had quite a rant in my earlier posting, and now feel the need to explain.

JRJ's opening posting of this discussion
 
Is it difficult to be Catholic in Britain? Not? How have your ancestors described earlier times as Catholics? How do you see the history of the Church in Britain affecting you today?


My postings about the early Irish immigrants were made, to explain how attitudes towards Catholics have changed over a period of about 150 years. Their arrival coincided, more or less, with the Catholic Emancipation Act. As an Englishwoman I feel great pride in our recusants. As an Irish blooded woman I have an attachment to the saints of Ireland.

Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
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SeanJ
Friday, 1. May 2009, 14:02
Rose of York
Friday, 1. May 2009, 11:09
My avatar is the white rose, emblem of Yorkshire, the county of my birth.
Silly me. I thought it was a daisy.

Sean
Cheeky monkey, that's my Rosa Alba Semi Plena. There's a beauty in my back garden.
Keep the Faith!

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Rose of York
Friday, 1. May 2009, 15:29

that's my Rosa Alba Semi Plena.
Isn't there a seting to that by Talis or was it Palastrina :harp: :musicnote: Rosa Alba :musicnote: Semi Plena :musicnote:
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Joe Valente
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Has anybody else here been blessed by a bishop on a bike?


A mere Bishop ! :smoke:

Cardinal Tomas O'Fiach was to seen regularly cycling around Armagh.

That tops a bishop. :boxing:

The Archbishop of Bamberg (Germany) can be seen jogging around the town (5.00am - 6.00am) in his tracksuit any morning that he is in residence. :wacko:

Yes I know that he became Cardinal Heenan, but he did not cycle around London :snob:
What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his soul
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william of bow
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:tc: O dear, 'twas not my intention to get into a fight. I am myself the son of an Irish woman. I am very aware of the contribution that generations of Irish have made to the Catholic faith in these lands.

I just felt that this discussion was going down the "there would be no catholic church in England if it wasn't for the Irish" line of arguement. It is a very strong myth among many non Catholics that the Reformation - King Henry 8 and Elizabeth 1st - did for catholicism in England and that, yes indeed if it wasn't for the Irish migrants (and this is always said as a negative thing) the catholic church would have stayed dead.

The myth continues that there was a day when everyone in Elizabeth's England woke up and decided all to be Protestant. In fact, as Professor Duffy has informed us (Stripping of the Altars - Morebattle) such a day never came. Many English people clung very strongly to their catholic faith and practices. For the sake of an easy life they just kept silent and went underground. The reformation and it's effects 'on the ground' was far, far more complex than most histories would have us believe.

Mea Culpa if I have offended :wh:

William
William of Bow

Quote:
 
Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed: a passage which some have considered as a prophecy of modern journalism.
[G.K.Chesterton]



Check my Blog: http://www.williamonthehill.typepad.co.uk
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Rose of York
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william of bow
Friday, 1. May 2009, 17:54
Mea Culpa if I have offended :wh:

William
No, William, I am not offended, that is why I posted addendum to rant.

Pax Christi
The Peace of Christ
Keep the Faith!

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SeanJ
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Once more into the breach dear friends.

Have you read The Autobiography of an Elizabethan by John Gerard? This is the autobiography of an Elizabethan Jesuit (from Lancashire of course), who was imprisoned in the tower of London and escaped. Full of narrow escapes and priests' hiding holes.

See the Catholic Reading List for more exciting reading.

Sean
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Rose of York
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Sean is that the book that was based upon the handwritten diary of a martyr?
Keep the Faith!

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SeanJ
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I presume he wrote it by hand, but he escaped from England, and then lived on the continent. So he was not a martyr. He wrote it in Latin by the way, and it was translated by a priest at Stonyhurst.

Sean
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pete

I purchased two DVD’s last week from Mary’s Dowry Productions, One was Saint Edmund Campion (A Hero Returns) The other was “The Martyrs Walk” through the streets of London, beginning at Tower Hill and ending at Tyburn convent.
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K.T.B.

When I was growing up my father, a teacher who was very keen and knowledgable about history, used to take all of us for days out to historical sites...castles, Roman ruins and the like. Me and my sibs used to enjoy them; fresh air , picnics etc and because Dad was so knowledgeable he'd describe life and events at the sites to us and bring them to life. I still have a fascination for history to this day as a consequence.

Included were visits to remnants of England's Catholic past: pre-Reformation churches and cathedrals, ruined monastaries. We always had to be quiet and respectful in the churches, but we didn't pray. We were quietly shown how the churches had been desecrated, the spaces where all the beautiful statues of the saints and angels had been knocked out or where they had been defaced, the old holy water stoups, the stone vessels on the wall where the priest would wash his hands during Mass (forget the technical name for the latter). We would be shown any remnants of frescoes behind the white wash, and of old stained glass windows. We knew how richly decorated the churches used to be,they were created for the glory of God and that all pre-Reformation churches were once Catholic. Although it was unsaid I picked up the feeling that they should have remained so. We were told that there were to that day some families who never converted to protestantism although many others were forced to do so.

The politics behind the Reformation was not explained, nor the suffering and courage of the martyrs in any detail, I think we were too young, (Dad died when I was 13), although Elizabeth the First was never spoken of very favourably. I'm quite grateful for the insight he gave us. Much of the history of the period we used to learn at school ( I believe it's taught from different angles now), "Good Queen Bess" contrasted with "B***** Mary" ( the editing facility won't let me put the name Mary 1st is described as!) etc., is really just Tudor propaganda.
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